Re: Oracle threatens to sue Standish over an article
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 11:51:10 GMT
Message-ID: <1993Jul19.115110.5159_at_pyra.co.uk>
In <CAAKsE.MDJ_at_feanor.xel.com> shaw_at_feanor.xel.com (Greg Shaw) writes:
>Hal Berenson (berenson_at_nova.enet.dec.com) wrote:
>: In article <1993Jul3.021408.10121_at_qiclab.scn.rain.com>, tcox_at_qiclab.scn.rain.com (Thomas Cox) writes...
>[ bunch o' stuff deleted ]
>: So the problem with a "no benchmark special" rule is that determining
>: what is or isn't a benchmark special is very subjective. How would a
>: vendor prove that a feature wasn't a benchmark special? Would they have
>: to produce a customer who would testify they are using the feature?
>: Would one be enough? Two? Ten? Should the TPC provide the exact
>: program to be run, thus forcing the use of standard SQL syntax and
>: preventing the use of vendor-specific features? Would this really
>: provide a useful comparison, since customers DO use many non-standard
>: features, or would it be just another useless data point?
>In a word, YES.
> When evaluating DB systems, the TPC benchmark is used
>*OFTEN* to compare A vs. B. Period. 'Special' features that influence a
>benchmard (aka propietary features) are of *NO* use, because you're not
>talking about inplementing everyting in a vendor-specific situation.
>You're talking about apples vs. apples, DB vendor vs. DB vendor.
>Because Oracle uses a 'feature' that is not something that would be useful
>in a REAL WORLD situation (aka any real situation) to 'up' their TPC
>benchmarks disqualifies them, in my opinion.
Just because it's not useful in a particular real world situation does *NOT* mean that it is not useful in any real world situation.
>They play 'dirty pool'. Period. I want to see what *REALLY* happens with
>a DB system, not some fake system.
Don't we all?
> When TPC can do a real world test
>(hopefully varied), I expect it to accurately reflect what I can do with
>*MY* database.
But I want it to reflect *MY* database, not *YOUR* database ... and there's the rub!
> 'Discrete transactions' are not what I can do with my
>database ... and expect the database to be intact at the end of the day.
>: The TPC does have a very strict definition of what the benchmark can and
>: can not do. That definition exists at a fairly high level (essentially a
>: detailed functional specification) so that any software system on any
>: hardware platform can run the benchmark. So, it is possible using TPC
>: benchmarks to compare a TPF2 system with the application implemented in
>: IBM 370 assembly language accessing a private file structure with
>: application implemented recovery mechanisms to a Compaq PC running SCO
>: UNIX and ORACLE with the application written in C calling PL/SQL
>: procedures. You can also use TPC benchmarks to evaluate the
>: suitability of OODB products for TP applications, which you couldn't do
>: if the TPC provided an ISO SQL program as the only valid benchmark
>: program.
>Again, real world vs. fantasy world.
I'm confused again, you mean these are your fantasies???!
>: 2) The real point, the one Standish made but more or less seems to be
>: getting lost in the noise between them and Oracle, is that the TPC-A and
>: TPC-B benchmarks are obsolete as comparators of database and transaction
>: processing systems. When a benchmark is created all vendors will try to
>: optimize for that benchmark. At some point the vendors will "crack" the
>: benchmark by tuning their systems to the point that the benchmark (a) no
>: longer demonstrates user-useful differences between products and/or (b)
>: no longer can be extrapolated to predict the performance of customer
>: applications. TPC-A and TPC-B have more or less reached this point.
>: This doesn't make them bad benchmarks nor does it make vendors who bent
>: over backwards to "win" these benchmarks unethical. TPC-A&B have caused
>: about an order of magnitude improvement in simple-query pathlength,
>: recovery algorithms, and I/O since 1987. Nearly every customer
>: application had benefited dramatically from the TPC-A&B benchmark wars.
>: 1993 pretty much marks the end of those customer benefits from TPC-A&B.
>: The TPC-C benchmark not only is representative of a much broader set of
>: applications then TPC-A&B, it poses a host of new problems demanding
>: vendor attention and optimization. TPC-A&B should be retired as obsolete
>: and both customers and vendors should focus on TPC-C (and the soon to
>: appear TPC-D). TPC-C&D will provide more useful information to customers,
>: and over the next 2-4 years will drive dramatic additional improvements
>: in database system performance.
>I have to agree,
Great. Maybe we're *both* in the real world, after all!
> with one qualifier: If the TPC-C benchmark (and TPC-X
>where X>C) *ACCURATELY* reflects what goes on on a typical DB machine, then
>what you say has relevance. If it does not, however, it means that
>databases are being optimized for functions that are not common.
>I do feel that any TPC benchmark will test some functionality of a DB
>system. I contend that the system must be demonstrably close to what
>happens in the real world to be usable and/or believable.
>: .............................................................................
>: Hal Berenson
>: Home: 71640.3535_at_compuserve.com
>: Work: berenson_at_nova.enet.dec.com
>: -- Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here are my own and should not be
>: construed as representing the views of my employer or its employees,
>: officers, directors, or stockholders. --
>Greg.
>--
>_______________________________________________________________________________
>You can't go against nature, because when you do, Greg Shaw
>go against nature, it's part of nature too. shaw_at_feanor.xel.com
> Love & Rockets uunet!csn!xel.com!shaw
graeme
-- Disclaimer: The author's opinions are his own, and not necessarily those of Pyramid Technology Ltd. or Pyramid Technology Inc. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- -m------- Graeme Sargent Voice: +44 (0)252 373035 ---mmm----- Senior Database Consultant Fax : +44 (0)252 373135 -----mmmmm--- Pyramid Technology Ltd. Telex: Tell who??? -------mmmmmmm- Farnborough, Hants GU14 7PL Email: graeme_at_pyra.co.uk --------------------------------------------------------------------------- We have the technology. The tricky bit is learning how to use it.Received on Mon Jul 19 1993 - 13:51:10 CEST