Re: choices regarding where to place code - in the database or middletier

Hi Niall!

Niall Litchfield wrote:

> <sybrandb_at_yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:a1d154f4.0401220423.2c4ea885_at_posting.google.com...
>
>>Joe Weinstein <joeNOSPAM_at_bea.com> wrote in message
>
> news:<400EB04E.1010101_at_bea.com>...
>
>>>Depending on an external layer for what the DBMS is best at, *is*
>
> begging
>
>>>for problems. However, I believe there's a lot that the DBMS can't do
>
> well,
>
>>>and depending on the DBMS to do that stuff is also begging for problems,
>
> in
>
>>>performance to start.
>>>To repeat the inarguable example, the DBMS can't even do the basic job
>
> it was
>
>>>designed to do by itself, in a test designed specifically to exercize a
>
> DBMS,
>
>>>as fast by itself, as it can when it uses an intelligent middle tier.
>>> We're focussing on our differences, but I am also a DBMS guy, and we
>
> would
>
>>>probably agree for the most part on specific functionality that should
>
> be in
>
>>>the DBMS.
>>>Joe Weinstein at BEA
>>
>>Apparently you have been brainwashed and consider middle-tier to be
>>THE Gospel, and now you are trying to brainwash others. Your assertion
>>'depending on the DBMS is begging for problems' demonstrates that
>>clearly: you simply don't know what you are talking about. I have seen
>>NO (I repeat NO) middle-tier applications that couldn't be qualified
>>as a complete DRAMA. Anyone with only a little bit of experience in
>>the field is aware of that.
>>There is NOTHING in a middle-tier that couldn't be done by a DBMS, in
>>most cases having it done by a middle-tier 'application' is at it's
>>best asking for something completely unscalable (which BTW everyone
>>with a little bit of experience knows).
>
>
> Drawing graphs, working on OS files, computing complex fourier transforms. I
> can't see that any of these belong in the DBMS in general. Why would anyone
> use forms or C or Java to write applications anyway, just use the database.
> Surely the key is doing the right stuff in the right place.

Yes! We should communally compile a list of those items that are good for the DBMS to do, and those items that are best done outside, and the tradeoffs involved in choices when something can be done in either place.

>The app server
> guys have a *lot* of arguing to do with me around the case for database
> independence and middle tier data validation etc,

[Quoted] [Quoted] Sure! *I* tend to council against complete DBMS independence. This is not [Quoted] for love or preference for a given DBMS product, but in acknowledgement [Quoted] [Quoted] that a significant portion of the DBMSes capabilities are presented in a proprietary way. As to data validation, I believe that there is a wide spectrum of viable data validity, and it balances with concurrency. Middleware provides for an architecture that gives a wide-and-finely tuneable way to choose how much concurrency vs. currency is wanted.

> ISTM that this approach is
> purely in the interest of app developers, but not in the interest of good
> design and application owners and users. Equally arguing that the database
> can and should do everything seems equally mad.

I agree that if anyone argued that middleware should do everything, it would be equally mad. No one has done that here, yet. Therefore we probably agree that the counter-assertion quoted above, that having the middle tier do anything is asking for something unscaleable, remains the current peak in madness in this thread so far. ;)
Joe

>
>
> --
> Niall Litchfield
> Oracle DBA
> Audit Commission UK
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Received on Sat Jan 24 2004 - 20:06:18 CET