Re: The Revenge of the Geeks

From: BGB <>
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 04:44:42 -0600
Message-ID: <kdr3dj$h8u$>

On 1/24/2013 4:03 AM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
> On 01/24/2013 12:47 AM, BGB wrote:
>> On 1/23/2013 7:17 PM, Arne Vajh°j wrote:
>>> On 1/23/2013 5:35 AM, BGB wrote:
>>>> On 1/23/2013 3:25 AM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:

>>>>> On 01/23/2013 02:21 AM, BGB wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/22/2013 11:33 PM, Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
>>>>>>> Yes, it is a shame that Oracle runs Java but Sun wasn't so great
>>>>>>> at it
>>>>>>> either.  Both pushed for high cost, high complexity "enterprise
>>>>>>> edition"
>>>>>>> libraries that come and go like fashion but dragged their feet on
>>>>>>> streamlining the language itself.
>>>>>> much agreed...
>>>>>> the lack of "streamlining" of the core language is admittedly one
>>>>>> of my
>>>>>> bigger complaints about Java at present.
>>>>>> this is along with what few new features are added to the core
>>>>>> language
>>>>>> (and to the JVM) are IMO far too often via ugly hacks.

>>>>> I'm not too worried about Java the language being close to
>>>>> stagnant, so
>>>>> long as library development is up to par. Because if the solution I've
>>>>> selected includes the JVM, then often Scala or Clojure are better
>>>>> choices for high-productivity coding. Myself I don't care if Java the
>>>>> language ever gets updated again - it's not important. The innovation
>>>>> shifted away from Java the language years ago; there are better JVM
>>>>> options now.

>>>>> So I would disagree with both you and Kevin that "streamlining" the
>>>>> core
>>>>> language is all that important. You can't do enough of it to core Java
>>>>> to make it worthwhile, without major changes. So why bother now?
>>>>> What's
>>>>> important actually *are* those "high cost, high complexity EE
>>>>> libraries", plus the later SE/EE-agnostic libraries like concurrency.
>>>> yes, but the lack of polish for the core language doesn't really make
>>>> using Java a particularly attractive option when contrasted against,
>>>> say, C++ or C#.
>>> I don't think Java should worry about C++. For business apps, then
>>> C++ is not really an option. And business apps is what Java is good
>>> at.
>> some of us never go anywhere near business apps though...
>> for example, I am mostly at-present a game developer, with side areas in
>> audio/video processing (writing codecs, ...), and am also into things
>> like compilers and scripting VM technology.
>> these are generally areas where C and C++ have a much stronger hold.
> [ SNIP ]
> "Business" apps is however the core strength of Java, that and all the
> tooling that goes along with it. I couldn't care less if Java is found
> on *any* consumer computer, because that's not particularly important.
> It comes back to this: you pick a language because of what it's suited
> for, or after languages have been around for a while, what other people
> already have used it for.
> For "enterprise" type work the languages used are variable. For example,
> if you're dealing with IBM WebSphere MQ, depending on your task, you
> might be using a .NET language, Java, C or C++. But nevertheless a great
> deal of applications from the big iron companies are Java SE and EE.

well, yes, but this creates a split:
people writing business apps have reason to use it, since it does fairly well at this particular domain;
people doing other stuff have less reason to use it (since, they are not writing business apps, and it doesn't have as many strong points outside this area).

it is worth noting though that the original topic applied mostly to end-users using Java on Windows systems, and presumably what sorts of apps this implies (most likely end-user applications, running on desktop PCs).

very likely, this largely amounts to things like OpenOffice and Minecraft and similar...

but, Java doesn't otherwise make a strong presence in this space.

granted, yes, I may be biased some in that I don't really write all that much Java code (admittedly, I have written a lot more C and C# code, and ironically, more C# thus far than C++). actually, there is more code in my scripting-language than in C++ as well at present it seems (so, the language-use ranking based on line-counts of my project is like: C, C#, BS, C++, Java).

all sort of glued together into a single Mloc-sized project... C is dominiant, and also sort of the "common hub" language, as pretty much everything can talk to C, but not as often to each other.

or such... Received on Thu Jan 24 2013 - 11:44:42 CET

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