Re: The Revenge of the Geeks

From: BGB <>
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 04:35:47 -0600
Message-ID: <kdoeh1$iau$>

On 1/23/2013 3:25 AM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:

> On 01/23/2013 02:21 AM, BGB wrote:
>> On 1/22/2013 11:33 PM, Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
>>> In article
>>> <>,
>>>   Ramon F Herrera <> wrote:
>>>> Oracle has getting a lot of attacks.
>>>>      "A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software with Java
>>>> updates"
>>>> th-java-updates-7000010038/?s_cid=e539
>>>> I can fathom how a software like Java could end up in the hands of a
>>>> company like Oracle...
>>>> -Ramon
>>> Thankfully, I don't run Windows anywhere so I don't get this.  I'm
>>> surprised they don't bundle an AltaVista toolbar and a GIF clipart
>>> library from back in the days when desktop shovelware was common.
>>> Yes, it is a shame that Oracle runs Java but Sun wasn't so great at it
>>> either.  Both pushed for high cost, high complexity "enterprise edition"
>>> libraries that come and go like fashion but dragged their feet on
>>> streamlining the language itself.
>> much agreed...
>> the lack of "streamlining" of the core language is admittedly one of my
>> bigger complaints about Java at present.
>> this is along with what few new features are added to the core language
>> (and to the JVM) are IMO far too often via ugly hacks.

> I'm not too worried about Java the language being close to stagnant, so
> long as library development is up to par. Because if the solution I've
> selected includes the JVM, then often Scala or Clojure are better
> choices for high-productivity coding. Myself I don't care if Java the
> language ever gets updated again - it's not important. The innovation
> shifted away from Java the language years ago; there are better JVM
> options now.

> So I would disagree with both you and Kevin that "streamlining" the core
> language is all that important. You can't do enough of it to core Java
> to make it worthwhile, without major changes. So why bother now? What's
> important actually *are* those "high cost, high complexity EE
> libraries", plus the later SE/EE-agnostic libraries like concurrency.

yes, but the lack of polish for the core language doesn't really make using Java a particularly attractive option when contrasted against, say, C++ or C#.

like, it is the great battle of "all options being equal, what language will I use to write this?...".

granted, yes, typically a person will work on a pre-existing project, and typically use whatever language(s) the project is already written in.

> 90% of developer productivity is achieved by adept and informed use of
> what other people have written: libraries.

potentially, but if a person can choose freely, all the major language options have libraries. not necessarily all the same libraries, but libraries none-the-less...

I guess it is more of an issue what sorts of libraries one has the most use for, and IME, most of the libraries I am interested in seem to exist mostly in C and C++ land.

sometimes C# is useful for quick-and-dirty GUI apps, and Paint.NET plugins, but otherwise it is a hard sell using a language which basically leaves one's apps tied to Windows (and on Mono, C++/CLI doesn't work, largely killing off most of what reason I might have for using it for much beyond quick-and-dirty GUI apps...).

most of what I end up writing in C and C++ tends to be mostly algorithm heavy and math-heavy code, typically making lots of use of vector math and similar (where one can have both a nice vector interface, and optimize them via SSE intrinsics, ...). (like, where one spends a lot of time optimizing things in the quest for higher frame-rates...).

granted, the big drawbacks in C and C++ land are the long compile times and lack of native dynamic-code-loading or eval, which is kind of why scripting languages are popular (and I have my own scripting language here, and recently went and wrote a new JIT for it as well, ...).

or such... Received on Wed Jan 23 2013 - 11:35:47 CET

Original text of this message