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Re: why administrator refuse to give permission on PLUSTRACE

From: <>
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 11:22:59 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <>

On Nov 10, 11:17 am, DA Morgan <> wrote:
> joel garry wrote:
> > On Nov 7, 5:58 pm, DAMorgan<> wrote:
> >> joel garry wrote:
> >>> Having spent several years providing DBA support as Hasta is
> >>> describing, and many more on the other side of the fence, I must say,
> >>> he's totally right on this one IME.
> >> I have too but that isn't the way it should be and at some point we
> >> need to stop pretending that mediocrity is acceptable.
> > It is not acceptable. However, it is the reality, and reality is what
> > we have to deal with. We can put out effort to change it, but to
> > think we can make a lot of difference _quickly_ is a mistake.
> Fine. <g>
> But lets say that the next time someone in management asks a developer
> to do a DBAs job the developer just said "I don't have the proper
> training to be a DBA and might inadvertently do serious damage. If you
> want me to touch prod you will have to give me appropriate training to
> be a DBA."
> Would the developer be fired? I doubt it and if there are plenty of
> better jobs to be had.
> Would the DBA be told to do it? Quite likely.
> If the DBA showed some integrity and demanded training would the DBA get
> it? I think so as long as that person was reasonable and professional.
> Is there something about why IT workers are, on average, putting in 20
> hour, or more, in uncompensated work each week that escapes you?
> Geeks are the fools of the 21st century. Willing to work outrageous
> hours, meet outrageous demands, do it with inadequate training, and
> then without protest lose their jobs to persons in third-world countries
> willing to do an equally abysmal job but for less money.
> Think I'm kidding? Indian companies have been caught outsourcing to
> China and China has been caught outsourcing to Vietnam and Mexico. Is
> anyone paying attention?
> >> Would you accept this from your family physician? Of course he or she
> >> is not an expert on every possible disease. But if they couldn't
> >> triage what ails you they'd run short on patients quickly.
> > Don't get me started. They're people too, and we all know people who
> > have been damaged.
> And we all know databases that have been damaged.
> There is a reason for the Oracle security model.
> There is a reason that Oracle created the resource role.
> >> How about your attorney? Did he or she memorize every law book on the
> >> shelf? Of course not. But they know how to find what they need when they
> >> need it.
> > Definitely don't get me started on this one!
> So you agree. <g>
> >> Arguing that because the DBA doesn't know everything is a rational
> >> reason to let the untrained and unqualified rat around a production
> >> instance is irresponsible so lets get back to this thread.
> > Did I say it was rational? No, it's just what I see. It's what we
> > see on this newsgroup, and most every forum.
> Then if you agree that it is irrational please join me in condemning it.
> That is all I've been arguing here for days.
> >> The subject was ... check the Subject above ... PLUSTRACE and the claim
> >> by some the developers belong on production boxes with DBA privs. And I
> >> am saying absolutely NO!
> > Too absolute for my taste. It only applies given some presuppositions
> > which aren't universal.
> Of course it is. I will also tell you, absolutely, no one but a
> physician should practice medicine. Would you agree? But then as a
> non-MD I've saved a few lives in my years here by breaking that rule.
> The difference is that under those conditions the alternative was
> worse. A developer not doing what they are not qualified to do is not
> a life-or-death matter.
> >> Now if you think, as a developer, you belong on a production box with
> >> DBA privs then focus on what I keep asking and to which not a single
> >> developer has replied.
> > I've lost track, what was that again?
> >> If you think you've the skill to diagnose what is slow then post here
> >> the methodology you use.
> >> Are developers trained in the use of StatsPack?
> > You've never seen someone question the usefulness of StatsPack?
> That wasn't the question. The question was whether developers are
> trained in the tools used to diagnose database issues.
> If you wish to claim StatsPacks of little or no value then I'd like
> to see you address that to Jonathan Lewis. <g>
> >> How about ASH and AWR?
> > You've never seen a system without these?
> I've never seen a Developer trained in their use.
> >> How about in the wait interface?
> > I'd say a good argument to be made that they should be.
> I agree but that is not the point: They aren't.
> >> To identify problem SQL and PL/SQL does not require knowing the
> >> business rules. It does not require knowing the business logic.
> >> If you think it does you've already flunked the class on tuning.
> > Maybe the class isn't entirely correct then. Remember what the best
> > performing SQL or PL/SQL is? That would be the SQL or PL/SQL you
> > don't run. _Any_ methodology that doesn't take that into account is
> > deficient.
> Wonderful. I agree. But irrelevant. The issue we have been beating to
> death here is the claim that developers belong on production boxes to
> identify problems. If the developer was good enough the bad code
> wouldn't be on the box in the first place.
> But it is ... so what experience or knowledge of tuning tools does
> the developer have to identify the problem statements? So far not a
> single developer has been able to tell me the name of the tool and the
> methodology they would use.
> >> Fixing the problem requires that knowledge but the triage does not.
> >> And the fixing takes place in Dev and Test ... not on Prod.
> > Consider this: The Vice-President of Marketing, who happens to be
> > married to the CEO and majority stockholder, is running a third-party
> > tool on her PC that sucks entire large tables. Where do you fix that?
> Probably with a crowbar but that is not the question.
> >> Want to try again? <g>
> > I'd rather have a nice salad. <g>
> If it is toro salad served over some rice with gari I'll join you.
> --
> Daniel A.Morgan
> Oracle Ace Director & Instructor
> University of Washington
> (replace x with u to respond)
> Puget Sound Oracle Users

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happy crackin'! Received on Thu Nov 15 2007 - 13:22:59 CST

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