Re: Development Trends in Web and Oracle

From: DA Morgan <damorgan_at_x.washington.edu>
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 22:24:53 -0800
Message-ID: <1110867703.420309@yasure>

Mark C. Stock wrote:

> "DA Morgan" <damorgan_at_x.washington.edu> wrote in message
> news:1110853776.637891_at_yasure...
>

>>Galen Boyer wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, damorgan_at_x.washington.edu wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Mark C. Stock wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"IANAL_VISTA" <IANAL_Vista_at_hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:Xns9618BA80696FBSunnySD_at_68.6.19.6...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Galen Boyer <galenboyer_at_hotpop.com> wrote in
>>>>>>news:uhdjeg5em.fsf_at_hotpop.com:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, wizofoz2k_at_yahoo.com.au wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Hexathioorthooxalate apparently said,on my timestamp of 13/03/2005
>>>>>>>>10:50 PM:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>What the heck do you think an XML schema is, or even a DTD. It
>>>>>>>>>is the rules, the contract, that the data must adhere to. This
>>>>>>>>>seems like SOMETHING to me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>NO, most definitely NOT.  It is a DESCRIPTION of the rules.
>>>>>>>>It is NOT a way of enforcing the rules.  For that, you MUST
>>>>>>>>write code!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>This isn't true with Schemas.  Your statement is about as wrong as
>>>>>>>Hexathioorthooxalate's statement that one must right triggers and
>>>>>>>procs to check RI.  Sure, something must, but not the developer of
>>>>>>>either an XMLSchema or a Relational schema.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Please post a working/reproducable example or a URL to same.
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.oracle.com/technology/sample_code/tech/xml/xmldb/XDBBasicDemo.zip
>>>>>http://www.oracle.com/technology/sample_code/tech/xml/xmldb/XDBBasicDemo.pdf
>>>>>both found on
>>>>>http://www.oracle.com/technology/sample_code/tech/xml/xmldb/index.html
>>>>>Daniel, Please describe your preferred architecture for the following
>>>>>typical scenario: Customer X generates XML purchase orders (format
>>>>>non-negotiable, we are one of 3000 vendors that receive the same
>>>>>format) System R (which we are architecting and have full control
>>>>>over) receives the XML document electronically, fulfills it, and
>>>>>sends an XML response.  What would you use for processing the
>>>>>incoming XML document?  How would you keep an official record of the
>>>>>customer's order?  What would you use to extract the data from the
>>>>>incoming document?  What would you use to generate the response
>>>>>document?  ++ mcs
>>>>
>>>>I think this is a perfectly valid use of XML.
>>>>You are using it for information exchange between multiple systems.
>>>
>>>
>>>Didn't you state that that was an abomination in some other message?
>>
>>No ... not at all.
>>
>>I said it was when used to transport data to and from an application
>>which is not what it was designed for. That is very different from
>>transporting information between applications: Messaging.
>>
>>In the first case I pass the same verbose text repeatedly. In the
>>later only one time in one direction. Yes a message may come back
>>but it won't be precisely what was sent.
>>
>>So, for example, I have information about invoices. An invoice is
>>created and the data stored 1X relationally. This is good. Someone
>>querying the database to create a report or print an invoice queries
>>relationally too. And reporting happens many many times.
>>
>>But if I am now transmitting an order to my supplier's system that is
>>an inter-system transfer and it happens only once ... and thus XML is
>>appropriate.
>>-- 
>>Daniel A. Morgan
>>University of Washington
>>damorgan_at_x.washington.edu
>>(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)

>
>
> ah, reporting...
>
> displaying to the web?
>
> you could extract the relationally stored data and wrap it in HTML and use
> CSS's
>
> or you could just as well wrap the extracted data in XML and use one or more
> XSLT transformations -- at least you're separating the data from the
> presentation (of course this is XML vs HTML, not XML vs Relational)
>
> or you could wrap the data in XML and use XSLT to feed it to FOP to produce
> PDF output
>
> or -- just generate the FOP input from your own PL/SQL library routines
>
> or, strap on your boots and jump into Oracle Reports ServerLand
>
> I think there's a place for XML to live and play in the vicinity of the
> database, besides just being a data transport mechanism. But perhaps that's
> the actual role in these scenarios, to. A transport mechanism to the report
> formatter (except of course, for Oracle Reports reports)
>
> Not to be overlooked is the use of XML for Developer Suite Forms and Reports
> definitions. Sure is nice to have a human readable version of the source
> code again.
>
> ++ mcs

Please excuse me my prejudice but I don't consider the web reporting.

Crystal Reports? Cognos? Discoverer? Brio? Business Objects? Oracle Reports? These are reporting. Displaying something on a web site almost never involves going after detail transaction data, creating multiple layers of aggregation, etc.

I didn't say never so lets not go chasing ghosts.

With respect to MS Office and Oracle's new-found fascination with XML as you mention in Developer Suite let me make one very clear statement: I don't form my opinions on the basis of what Oracle, or any other software vendor, chooses to implement in a product: Even Oracle.

-- 
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damorgan_at_x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)

Received on Tue Mar 15 2005 - 00:24:53 CST