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what a troll?! self serving maniac?!

From: omlet v4 <>
Date: 15 Jul 2004 15:13:03 -0700
Message-ID: <>

Richard Foote wrote:

> Hi Sheldon,
> It's probably not my place to comment however as you've chosen to post this
> in a public forum I guess I can.
> Firstly, I believe it's somewhat inappropriate to raise personal grievances,
> targeting an individual in the manner you have in a public forum such as
> this. Daniel uses his real name, posts using his real email address and as
> such it would be have been far more appropriate for you to have simply
> contacted him directly with any personal issues you may have.
> Secondly, I have read Daniels posts here and elsewhere and it is totally
> incorrect to categorise them as negative.

> You are of course entitled to your opinions but I personally find it really
> annoying when someone who contributes so much, when someone who has such a
> *positive* effect on the overall value of these NGs, when someone who has
> directly helped, supported and aided so many people, when someone who offers
> help in a manner that promotes self help rather than dependent help is
> publicly attacked for basically stating the truth.
> It's wrong and basically Sheldon you're wrong.

> "Sheldon Penny" <> wrote in message
> news:HpUg9.316912$
> > Daniel
> >
> > I would really like to know about you. All I have seen is negative posts
> > from you towards people that are trying to get into the business of Oracle.
> > You must have been born of the Oracle blood to be of such high opinion of
> > others. You have know idea of what calibre people are, you make judgements
> > on people by their post without knowing anything of the people you are
> > judging. For all you know these people could have been in charge of a
> > database or several databases on a volunteer bases when the were in school,
> > or have you ever heard of the term genius. I feel you should maybe turn your
> > BS towards maybe helping instead of telling us what we lack. People do have
> > to have a place to start and to learn, this is why the IT industry is so
> > hard to get into. I have a proven track record with excellent VB skills with
> > the company I work for before, and yet I can't even get a job in that after
> > the company went under. So how about a little praise for those of us that
> > are trying.
> >
> >

And Sheldon, while I respect your opinion, please consider the following:

I am a consultant with more than 30 years in the industry (Fortran, Cobol, DB2,
Teradata) the last 10 with Oracle. I am an instructor at the University of
( and have
developed the University's curriculum and teach all classes for the Oracle
Application Development certificate program. In short; part of what I do is help
people become Oracle developers and DBAs. And as Richard has eloquently stated,
I don't tell people what they want to hear ... I tell them the truth as honestly
as I can.

Most posts from people wanting to get into this business look to me something
like one of the following (with apologies for the US-centric nature of the

Example 1:
I am a law student who just graduated law school and passed the bar exam. How
can I become a judge on the Third Circuit Court of Appeals. I am hoping to some
day be appointed to the Supreme Court.

Example 2:
I have five years experience piloting single engine airplanes and have flown in
and read training manuals on 747s and 777s. I am looking for a position as pilot
on Air Force One.

My point being that there are a lot of people out there who have put in
thousands of hours studying Oracle who are currently unemployed or underemployed. People uniquely qualified by virtue of their hard work, and
paying their dues, to become DBAs. For some reason everyone with near-zero
experience thinks they are DBA material without ever putting in the necessary
apprenticeship (2-5 years) as a developer.

I'm not saying you can't find someone to hire you. But I can say that I would no
more want someone with your background as a DBA on a project than I would want a
medical student on an internship performing a heart bypass on me. Set your long
term goals high. But understand that Oracle is not Access. It isn't even a
member of the same species as Access. And if you have any pride in doing a good
job ... then you have years to put in before you will be qualified to be a
competent DBA.

Classes at UW start again October first. Come on down and register. I've still
got a couple of seats available.

Daniel Morgan Received on Thu Jul 15 2004 - 17:13:03 CDT

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