Re: Oracle Report Generator - SPAMMERS needed

"Howard J. Rogers" <hjr_at_dizwell.com> wrote in message news:<4096c66e$0$4544$afc38c87_at_news.optusnet.com.au>...
> Ed prochak wrote:
> > "Howard J. Rogers" <hjr_at_dizwell.com> wrote in message news:<40947182$0$442$afc38c87_at_news.optusnet.com.au>...
>
> [snip]
>
> >>Well, so you say... but personally, I can't be monitoring 4 newsgroups.
> >>This one is quite enough!
> >
> >
> > Which ONE is that, since you left the cross posting to three ORACLE
> > groups??
>
> Server, Ed. Server.

and I'm generally wondering around in .misc and occasionally .marketplace
I removed .tools from my reply and if I do reply again, I'll drop .server

The culture can ceratinly differ between the groups under the oracle umbrella. perhaps we are more sensitive to off topic posts herein .misc since many seem to think any oracle post fits here. It doesn't.
>
> >
> > So you cannot be bothered reading another group and therefore the rest
> > of us must suffer wading thru junk postings? Rather selfish logic
> > don't you think?
>
> Selfish? Probably. You *don't* want to wade through junk postings, and I
> would call that a bit selfish, too. The last truly unselfish person I
> once caught a glimpse of has lately been canonised.

Good for you.

[]
> > Now maybe if there were questions FROM USERS or POTENTIAL USERS about
> > how the tool performed, it might go in the c.d.o.tools group. But the
> > offer, free or not, really belongs in the marketting group. Deal with
> > it.
>
> He posted already, and so did I... so how about *you* deal with *that*.

So he learned something. Excellent.
>
> [snip]
>
> >>It is also clearly Oracle-related, at least in part, and thus falls (as
> >>far as I am concerned) into the same category as me including
> >>www.dizwell.com in my signature (whenever I can remember to use one) or
> >>Jonathan letting us know about his next seminar dates.
> >
> >
> > We've gone over this MANY times. Have you just now started read these
> > groups?
>
> Yes, Ed. Whatever. (How about checking on google before making daft
> comments like that one).

I asked a question, having not seen (or remembered seeing) you post in .misc before. Yes you do seem to be a regular in server. Sorry but I just don't happen to wonder over there much. Did my question offend you? Sorry. (And that's a sincere apology.)
>
> > A .sig is not in the same category as the start of this thread.
>
> It is all marketing. I know why I include a sig, anyway.

I gues you can argue that. It is though kind of like the difference between a busines card and a billboard. One is small and relatively out of the way. The other is large and blocks the view of the skyline. So in that sense, yes, both are marketting.
>

[]
> > Sorry, but you are in the minority on this point.
>
> Strangely, I have had four emails agreeing with me, and your one public,
> lonely, post stating the opposite case. So that rather suggests it is
> the other way around.

We may be both right. We are posting from two different groups. I was speaking from .misc. (and my next reply will only go to .misc)
>
> But whatever: this doesn't ultimately become a numbers game. My point
> was that when self-appointed policemen like you and Daniel start posting
> long-winded, high-and-mighty 'telling off' Usenet policeman letters in
> response to the post that started this thread, I end up wading through
> far more useless posts (by volume and by content) than if you'd just
> shut up and ignored the "offending" post in the first place.

Daniels post was LONG WINDED???
Counting his .sig it was all of 14lines. I gave reasons for my posts which I think answer your suggestion.
>
> Allegedly, we are all adults and can make our own minds up about what is
> appropriate for a particular group. If you dislike it, send the guy a
> private email pointing it out. But public posts to the effect that "you
> are a naughty boy" is as much unwelcome spam as the original post might
> have been.

As I said, I believe they serve to inform newcomers.
>
> >>Personally, I feel it is not particularly helpful to jump on people
> >>offering Oracle information/applications/tools/information but where no
> >>cash is changing hands, which you do a lot.
> >
> >
> > It's not about the money. when will you see that?
>
> Yes, you're right. It's not the money. It's the morally superior tone
> and attitude I can't stand.

This isn't a moral issue. it's a cultural one.
>
> [snip]
>
> > We do need to speak out on junk postings since that is the primary way
> > for newcomers to get a sense of whats appropriate and what's not
> > appropriate.
>
> If there were a lot of them, I could understand it, maybe. But there
> aren't, and newcomers generally aren't the kind of people who start
> posting about what a wonderful product they've just developed. It tends
> to be more along the lines of "what's a database?".

I think the reason there aren't a lot of them is due to efforts like Daniel's.
>
> I think posts which are in the "wrong" group, and which bug you, should
> warrant a private email from you and anyone else concerned to the poster.

That is appropriate sometimes and I have done both. Funny thing is many people I've corrected thru email often reply to me graciously. Daniel's posts may be a little sharp, but their purpose is ultimately to inform the OP.
>
> >Few seem to read the newusers groups anymore. If we do
> > not try to educate others about what's on-topic, this will eventually
> > degenerate into something closer to an AOL chatroom, where any topic
> > is is okay. Newsgroups are arranged into topics for a reason.
>
> And my brain isn't compartmentalised for a reason, so I still say he did
> nothing particularly wrong, and the offending posts are Daniel's where
> he edited the original without making the edit obvious, and yours, where
> you continue to kick up a fuss about something which (apparently) hasn't
> bothered very many people besides yourself.

The "editting" as far as I could see was to remove the paragraphs having the web site and email address. He should have put a [snip] there, but I do the same thing when pointing out these posts. I snip the links to avoid giving the adds additionally milage. It's exactly the right thing to do.
>
> > And as I've pointed out (also MANY times), each group forms it's own
> > culture about off topic posts.
>
> And that's then set in stone, is it? And policed as it has been here??

No, I answered this already on the next line:
>
> > It does so thru discussion like this.
>
> What? Discussions where you suggest I'm a newbie moron who has only just
> started reading the group? That sort of discussion??

I did not label you anything.
You ARE a newbie poster in the .misc group, as AM I in the .server group where presumably you are reading this. A discussion is a series of back and forth comments between two or more people. Seems we have had several posts by 5 folks on this thread with several viewpoints. I'm not angree with you. Are you angry? Did your paragraph have a point?
>
> > Right now the consensus is that commercial postings, even FREE offers,
> > belong in the marketplace group.
>
> And who determined that "consensus"? I don't remember being asked to
> vote on the matter.

I guess the most recent discussion in .misc were not crossposted to .server. Browse a bit in google on the .misc side. We seem to have this discussion more frequently here.

And the .server group can certainly have a different concensus than .misc
>
> >Daniel's posting is there to educate
> > Mr. Molochnikov.
>
> And when did Daniel apply for, and get given, the job of Supreme
> Educator of Newsgroup Culture?

No he is just a lowly Liutenant Educator of c.d.o.misc Newsgroup Culture.
Me? I'm just a Corporal. 8^)
>
> >He can chose to learn from it or not. My posting here
> > is to hopefully persuade you that marketplace is the appropriate place
> > for his ad. You now have a choice too.
>
> Well, on careful consideration, my choice is to ignore your post and
> continue to believe that "See my sister's big hooter" is off-topic spam
> that would be nice to get rid of (especially because they usually miss
> out the apostrophe) and "Free Oracle Reporting Tool" is something I can
> live with, wherever it happens to materialise.

Well, Daniel may have a better news filter than you do and so doesn't see the "hooter" style postings. Those tend to be by oneshot email accounts so little will educate them, other than maybe a dope slap But I haven't found anyone to admit in person they made such a post, so I haven't yet had the chance to apply said procedure 8^) I tend to just ignore them since they can easily hold nasty software payloads.
>
> If you feel strongly about a post, email the guy in your own time (good
> luck tracking down the Sister's and Hooter's posters, of course). But
> you don't have to clog up my time and bandwidth with your moralising,
> wanna-be-educative consensus-divining, replies, that's all.
>
> HJR
in that case, email educates one person at a time. A single reply by a respected regular like Daniel can persuade many more than that. Sorry we disturbed your rest in .server. On this thread, this is the last one you'll see from me.

So that is the lesson for today: trim the groups on your reply people.

This posting brought to you by the Duct Tape council who reminds you that:
 in the end all solutions are temporary.

Have a good day. Received on Wed May 05 2004 - 15:08:41 CDT