Re: choices regarding where to place code - in the database or middletier

sybrandb_at_yahoo.com wrote:

> Joe Weinstein <joeNOSPAM_at_bea.com> wrote in message news:<400EB04E.1010101_at_bea.com>...
>

>>Depending on an external layer for what the DBMS is best at, *is* begging
>>for problems. However, I believe there's a lot that the DBMS can't do well,
>>and depending on the DBMS to do that stuff is also begging for problems, in
>>performance to start.
>>To repeat the inarguable example, the DBMS can't even do the basic job it was
>>designed to do by itself, in a test designed specifically to exercize a DBMS,
>>as fast by itself, as it can when it uses an intelligent middle tier.
>>    We're focussing on our differences, but I am also a DBMS guy, and we would
>>probably agree for the most part on specific functionality that should be in
>>the DBMS.
>>Joe Weinstein at BEA

Interesting! It seems that your misquote indicates only that you don't know what I'm talking about... Look again. I said that depending on the DBMS *for things that it doesn't do best* is looking for trouble.

> I have seen
> NO (I repeat NO) middle-tier applications that couldn't be qualified
> as a complete DRAMA. Anyone with only a little bit of experience in
> the field is aware of that.

What you say is true, but those with more than a little experience in the field may differ... ;)

> There is NOTHING in a middle-tier that couldn't be done by a DBMS, in
> most cases having it done by a middle-tier 'application' is at it's
> best asking for something completely unscalable (which BTW everyone
> with a little bit of experience knows).

Again, a little information is a dangerous thing ;)... I believe that the audience that believes that there should be no middle tier, and that having the DBMS do everything is more scaleable, is small and preferentially populated by your group of 'everyone with a little bit of experience'. The idea that a globally distributed application with browser front-ends should interact directly with some DBMS is silly. You might also actually discuss why, if the DBMS can do everything, why it needs middleware in a pure DBMS-centric TPC-C benchmark. According to you, it should scale better by itself. It seems you should educate Oracle's performance team...

> I would contest you are a 'DBMS guy',

I guess I'm more of a blasphemer and infidel? ;)

> if you really are a 'DBMS guy'
> you wouldn't have made your completely erroneous claim 'depending on a
> DBMS is begging for problems'

Misquote renoted. The point is that I'm not *only* a DBMS guy. My specialty (since '96) is Java-database connectivity (JDBC). BEA (weblogic) developed the first JDBC drivers for Oracle, Sybase, Informix, and MS SQLServer. Before that, for 8 years I was joe_at_sybase.com, joining the startup as it's 100th-or-so employee. I work with most DBMSes all the time, and if people stopped using DBMSes, I'd be out of a job. I just now know that their proper purview is not unlimited... ;)

> Depending on a middle-tier however IS, as everyone knows, BEGGING for
> problems, especially when being used by inexperienced developers (and
> middle-tier 'applications' are ONLY being developed by inexperienced
> developers)
>
> Sybrand Bakker
> Senior Oracle DBA

I wish you well, but this seems so parochial as to be comical! I suspect that you don't *want* to know about the success and need for middleware, as if it threatened the Papacy of DBAs. I'll bet the chance you'll visit the BEA site and examine the immense customer list of global company success stories is nill, but as others might, here's a link:

http://www.bea.com/framework.jsp?CNT=index.htm&FP=/content/customers

Joe Weinstein at BEA Received on Thu Jan 22 2004 - 11:23:36 CST