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Home -> Community -> Usenet -> c.d.o.server -> Re: Outsourcing developer to India and China - As an Oracle developer I am miffed
John Rutherford wrote:
> I speak French and German
Great. European languages. I myself speak French, German, Italian and Russian as well as a smattering of Ancient Greek and Aramaic. So where's the Japanese, Korean or Mandarin?
You're as bad as I am. We thought the world was European (we let the Yanks in on sufferance, and the fact they saved us from disaster on many occasions), and it isn't.
> I work for the subsiduary of a German company in England
I worked for a branch office of an American company with offices all over the world. So?
> So when my job is sold off to India or China by some soft headed IT
> MAnager I will be off to
> Germany or France and wont have that problem.
Mistaken, my friend. European law is European law. It will apply to you wherever in the 25 as it does in the 1. And the EU has signed up the WTO. So ultimately, you're doomed unless you can compete.
> Still I have no problem with India or China competing for Jobs in the IT
> sector - But once again outsourcing is not about competition - Its about
> being used - 3rd world exploitation. workers will be getting a third of
> the salary and few benefits - Pensions??? er from where??
Maybe, just maybe, they don't expect (or even worse, desire) pensions. Quite where we got the idea that the state would feather-bed our twilight years, I have no idea. Well, actually I do. It was Bismarck in the 1860's, as part of his poular nationalism (which was to transmogrify itself in the 20th century into National Socialism) who invented state pensions. Before that, if you didn't save, you were on your own.
So who cares if the Indians do or don't have national pension schemes? Most of Britain doesn't these days, either: you take out your own scheme, or you look forward to three shillings and thruppence in retirement.
Strikes me that self-responsibility is in, and state-responsibility is out, and I sort of, almost, kind of agree with that philosophy (safety nets permitting).
> I heard the other day there was a large demand for specialists in
> psychiatry - Apparently many workers in call centers are burning out due
> to the working conditions.
> Havnt we been hear before ???????????
> Cheap jeans from 3rd world countries by major western brands
> The whole Nestle thing
Oh come on. I'm not jumping at "I heard the other day" stories. Back it up with facts, or don't mention it at all. I personally don't believe that western capitalists are evil bastards out to enslave the third world, but people who do good, and who make mistakes, too. And you can be sure that the pressure groups that highlighted the dreadful policies of Nike or Nestle will not let a bit of exploitation go unnoticed... or that, to preserve market share in the West, those self-same companies will suddenly see it in their interests to do better by their (third-world) employees.
>
> You make out I am protectionist and some sort of wooly westerner?
I make out nothing, unless the evidence is unambiguous. Some might consider a thread with 'India and China' in it to be a tad racist. I personally think that all those knee-jerk reactions along the lines of 'yes, the skies are falling in... lift the draw-bridges... abandon hope all ye who live in the West' are utterly ridiculous, and a moment's reflection on (to say the least) 160 years of history indicate that there's actually little to worry about. These things adjust themselves, and those poor bastards who have invested their entire futures into a particular technology or a particular way of doing things are, absolutely, entirely stuffed -but that they only have themselves to blame.
History suggests that we shall learn a thing or two from India or China and they way they do things, and that competition is a bloody good thing. So no, I'm not particularly worried, and anyone who is, needs to look at their own resume before they start throwing stones or seeking scapegoats.
> Well colonialism through the back door my friend - Outsorcing will screw
> 3rd world countries it also screws wooly westerners like me -
I don't even pretend to know how you can see something that has all the western IT'ers screaming 'we're doomed!' as neo-colonialism or colonialism through the back door.
Outsourcing will prove to be the life-blood of these developing countries. They *might* get "exploited" at first (it's happened before), but it won't last, and in the process they get the skills and the knowledge, and the hunger to succeed and the talent. Meanwhile, the same people that castigated Shell for wanting to dump an oil rig at sea, or who discovered the Nike shoe-scam, will be making sure that we don't actually exploit the new IT'ers of India or China to the point of slavery.
For the rest, let them make up their own minds. If they want fat state pensions, they will agitate for it, and social security contributions will go up accordingly... and the work will gradually move to somewhere cheaper.
And when everywhere has fat state pensions, the work will go where it's done best, on the basis of quality and customer care.
I don't fear that. Why should you?
On the basis of your arguments, Germany, with one of the highest extra-salary wage-costs in the world, should be a wasteland around about now. Why isn't it? Er, perhaps because the word 'Germany' conjours up the words 'engineering', 'quality', 'solid' and 'excellence'... each country finds their niche.
But no person can expect the global trading system to accomodate their own laziness or complacency.
Regards
HJR
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