Re: Are Oracle GUIs causing a decline in DBA salaries?

Hans Forbrich <forbrich_at_telusplanet.net> wrote in message news:<3EAEB5E3.9C85F1CB_at_telusplanet.net>...
> Karsten Farrell wrote:
>
> > Now this is more like it ... a real flame!
>
> (Hey, if you're looking for a flame war, I'll try to help. I'm not very good at it though.)

Just think of it as severe uncompression of repressed uncivility.

>
> > wizofoz2k_at_yahoo.com.au said...
> > > Karsten Farrell <kfarrell_at_belgariad.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.191701b35d952fc898975b_at_news.la.sbcglobal.net>...
> > >
> > > > I'm sorry, but I must be missing something here.
> > >
> > > You definitely are...
> >
> > Yeah, and my hearing is getting worse ... and I need my bifocals to read
> > this. Of course, I have to use the large icons on the toolbar of my
> > newsreader.
>
> They do make larger monitors these days. (I try not to wear my bifocals too often. <g>)

I've had these lineless trifocals the last couple of years, and am deciding they suck. I had the opportunity to get specific computer glasses and blew it. The problem with the trifocals is they are too narrow in the reading part, so I'm always having to move my head to get a particular part of the screen in focus, bad enough for a command line or hardcopy, but killer looking over a whole screen. I must look like a confused parrot. And I'm always getting eyeball-burned by stupid java-enabled web pages that do screwy things if the monitor and settings aren't set to jam as much smallness as possible onto the real estate. Come on "webmasters," learn how to make your pages fit in arbitrary panels (you too, Google!)! Not to mention hard-coded or hard-graphed literals that wind up in the wrong places. Harumph!

And of course, the larger the monitor, the worse the resolution. Well at least I haven't had a old blurry vaxstation in a while (knock on plastic...).

>
> > >
> > > > Why are GUI users
> > > > equated with unskilled, rank amateurs?
> > >
> > >
> > > Who said they were?
> >
> > Well, I kinda got the feeling that everyone was.
>
> There are 10 kinds of GUI users in the world*. Those that understand what they are doing, and those that use the
> blind-folded point and click under the assumption that the GUI developer is smart.

LOL
>
> > > > Why is something that makes my
> > > > job easier a bad thing?
> > >
> > > Who said it made your job easier? Ah, the vendor
> > > of the GUI tool... Of course!
> >
> > Actually, yes. As a matter of fact, they did say that in the ads. But
> > you know what? I agree with them.
>
> At least one company has made a great deal of $ convincing people that GUI is easier ...... and therefore cheaper,
> requires less training and requires less skill.
>
> I can certainly understand that GUI >>can be<< easier (except on the wrist). The rest, however is not automatic no matter
> how many idiots believe it so.

I'd like to see someone like the Gartner group quantify the $. Not likely.

>
> In general it is MUCH more expensive in the additional resources required - every stopped to look at the percent CPU

I'm not sure this is a good argument given the distributability of the presentation layer. Of course, I use my pc mostly with a bunch of X-windows running vt emulation :-) and oem sometimes and a vendors thin-client and a browser... And of course whatever stupid office software my customers use, which is the only reason why I'm on a PC in the first place.

> wasted in supporting graphics mode? In the less disciplined, it also supports the development of very sloppy habits.

That is very true, of course. But hey, if no one needs a DBA anymore... :-)

>
> > <snipped rest of the comments about the vendor telling me so>
> >
> > > > And in many cases, using a GUI does allow a DBA to do some tasks in half
> > > > the time.
> > >
> > > Prove it. Or are you trying to tell me that
> > > an "alter tablespace add datafile" runs faster
> > > if it is started by a GUI?
> >
> > Uh, no, I'm not trying to tell you that. The command, once it reaches
> > Oracle, doesn't run any faster or slower based on what tool I used on
> > the client side. But a GUI tool does help me - admittedly, only
> > sometimes - diagnose a problem quicker or see what needs to be fixed
> > more easily.
> >
> > Just a couple of examples -- there's the nice graphic in OEM that shows
> > the percent of tablespaces used (much easier to get a quick overview
> > than looking at the actual numbers in a command-line query against the
> > data dictionary). There are all those graphs in the OEM Performance Pack
> > that give, in my opinion, a clearer picture of the "health" of various
> > portions of the database.
> >
> > But there are times when the GUI gets in my way. I never use the Net8
> > Assistant. Much quicker for me to jump into tnsnames.ora with vi and
> > copy/paste. And I don't know how anyone ever used the Oracle Terminal
> > GUI to setup vt220 character-mode terminal emulators.
>
> A GUI is a visual tool and as such comes with all the benefits and limitations of visual perception. Video compression is
> much easier than audio compression - since there is visual retention, you only need to keep the change from the previous
> frame. Same thing here, a glance will tell when something deviates from standard visual memory.

While I certainly agree with the last sentence (for example, I think being able to see a Big Brother screen change color from across the room is the koolest thing in the world), I think there just hasn't been enough done in the audio display world... I was going to post a link to some cool thing that makes chirping noises so you can hear when everything is ok, but couldn't find it right away, oh well...

>
> I contend: GUIs are great for monitoring - anyone who uses command line for monitoring is missing something. GUIs are
> lousy for implementing, unless the user is a semi-trained monkey.
>
> > >
> > > > This idea that "real men don't use GUIs" is an old myth.
> > >
>
> "Real men know their tools and use the right one at the right time."

"Anyone can fix things with the right tools. It takes a REAL MECHANIC to fix things without the right tools." - My dad.

>
> >
> > > Oh, I've been in touch with my feminine side for
> > > a looooong time! :)
>
> > Cool!

Down under where? http://www.songfacts.com/detail.lasso?id=721

>
> /Hans
> (to take a line from you Karsten: DBA > architect > retired > consultant)
>
> *There are 10 kinds of people in the world -those that understand binary and those that don't.

The company that prints my checks offers a hex check - secret messages in hex for geeks on the checks!

jg

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