Re: Comparison of Java, C# for development on Windows and future for them

"kim bruning" <kim_at_NObruning.SPAMdemon.HEREnl.invalid> wrote in message news:g55pva.2ab.ln_at_bruning.demon.nl...
>
>
> Chad Myers <cmyers_at_n0.sp.4m.austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > "kim bruning" <kim_at_NObruning.SPAMdemon.HEREnl.invalid> wrote in
message
> > news:69knva.ok8.ln_at_bruning.demon.nl...
> >> Chad Myers <cmyers_at_n0.sp.4m.austin.rr.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > "kim bruning" <kim_at_NObruning.SPAMdemon.HEREnl.invalid> wrote in
> > message
> >> > news:98tmva.m3u.ln_at_bruning.demon.nl...
> >> >>
> >> >> Visual Studio is "Not The Unix Way", though there are several
> >> >> other ides available.
> >>
> >> > But not of the caliber of VS.NET, especially for C++ work.
> >>
> >> Let's not start another IDE war. Let's just say I'm a vi addict and
> >> leave it at that, ok?
>
> > vi is an editor, not an IDE. You're comparing apples to oranges.
>
> But but they're both fruit, and apples are more tasty.
>
> Actually especially vim has all kinds of hooks to external
> applications which together makes for some truely decent
> editing. Basically, all of unix is one big IDE (especially
> if you install the "developer packages").

Hrm, I disagree. An IDE is an "integrated" environment which means it had integrated compiler services, debugging, visual aides for building forms and such. Most IDEs are visual, whereas VI is more character mode.

I would put VI in the same general category as Emacs, jEdit, Notepad and Textpad. Obvious VI is better than than those in some regards and worse in others, but that's a different debate which I don't really care about. But to call VI an IDE is a little misguided. VI is a very powerful editor.

> > VS.NET is the best C++ IDE.
>
> I'll take your word for it, but I'll use vim to tangle with c++
thanks. :-)
> (Like I said, I prefer apples. Can't argue with taste. ;-) ).

Oh, I'm sure many people don't like full-blown IDEs for development. When I worked with Java, I thought the Java IDE situation was laughable so I used jEdit and a couple other text editors.

However, from what I hear from C++ folk, if you had to choose an IDE, especially for Windows development, VS.NET is miles ahead of everyone else.

>
> > vi may or may not be the best text
> > editor.
> > Actually, ed is the best text editor.
>
> You do realise of course that ed begat ex (Ed eXtended),
> and that later versions of ex included a VIsual mode.
> On some systems, vi is just a symlink to ex. Just thought
> you'd like to know. ;-)
>
> Summarising, I'm using the bastard grand stepchild of the worlds best
> text editor, namely: vim.
>
> > In fact, the
> > word "editor" comes from ed, not "viitor" or "emacsitor"
>
> Sure, in fact vi comes from ed extended VIsual mode.
>
> > -rwxr-xr-x 1 root 24 Oct 29 1929 /bin/ed
>
> Odd...
>
> kim_at_bruning:~ > ls -l `where ed`
> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 62573 May 11 2001 /bin/ed
> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 7 Oct 28 2001 /usr/bin/ed ->
/bin/ed

This is a joke from the GNU humor page "Ed man!, !man ed"

>
> >> >> Finally Exchange is the only thing that
> >> >> isn't pervasive on unix. Unix people like to feel they have
> >> >> superior tools to that. ;-)
> >>
> >> > Oh yeah, POP3/SMTP is far superior to Exchange. Where's that
> >> > all-inclusive collaboration package for *nix?
> >>
> >> I think it's called finger. ;-)
>
> > You can do calendar scheduling over finger? :)
>
> Yup.
> chmod g+w .plan
>
> Now people can log in and do stuff like:
> echo "G\na\nCome by the old docks tomorrow at noon or else!\n.\nw\n" |
> ed ~chad/.plan
>
> See? They can even use the worlds' best text editor if they like.
> What more could you want? Mermaids?

How does that schedule and set reminders? Is there a sync program for my Palm or PocketPC? Can I invite other members and see their free/buys status? Can I host an "online" meeting?

> Actually, that's quite a flexible way of dealing with schedules.

Um, sure. I'll take your word for it.

>
> > What about that ever-popular quote service?
>
> But it makes calendaring so hard....
>
> rm .plan; # There goes the calendar
> mkfifo .plan
> while true; do fortune > .plan; sleep 1; done &
> disown
>
> in both cases:
> finger chad_at_hiscoolbox.ohyeah.com
> Should give people access to your calendar or quote service.
> (we could do both, but that gets tricky. Maybe try netcat, hmmm)
>
> >>
> >> > Why do the Linux folk try to duplicate Outlook (see Evolution)?
> >>
> >> Why, to allow linux machines to displace windows machines
> >> entirely of course. World domination!
>
> > Erm. Right. *looks at watch*. Wow, Linux gained 0.2% on the
> > desktop in the past 2 years or so on the desktop. At that rate,
> > it'll be about 940 years or so before Linux dominates. ;)
>
> You can see that on your watch? Is that the IBM one that runs
> linux? Wow, cool! [1]

Damn I wish. Whatever happened to that? I saw it when it first came out on Slashdot, but haven't heard much about it since.

Also MS and a bunch of watch manufacturers are coming out with the Smart Personal Objects which run some basic OS but support receiving events and messages over an FM sub-band.

Now I'll have to have a watch on both wrists!

>
> Well, anyway, as you can see, in 940 years it *will* dominate on
> the desktop, or what's left of it ;). So there you have it.

Exactly.

>
> >> > Actually, it's already done. The CIL and C# are standards and
cannot
> >> > be "pulled" anymore.
>
> <snip cool data>.
> Wicked! I'm going to look at that.
>
> > Also, Microsoft released Rotor (aka Shared Source CLI - SSCLI)
> > which runs on Windows, *BSD, MacOS X, and Linux. It's full
> > source including the CLR, FCL, and C# compiler.
>
> Shared Source? Auh... that sounds scary... Got a link to
> their licencing scheme?

http://www.microsoft.com/licensing/sharedsource/

It's pretty simple. You can read the source, play with it, change it and such, but you can sell it. I think you can redistribute it but only under the same license and you can't charge for it and only for personal or academic use.

The point, as I understand it, is to allow people to view the source, but not much else.

For example, the entire source of Windows CE .NET (WCE 4.0) was released under Shared Source.

Rotor was an independent implementation of the CLI and C# specs to show that one could do it without actually being Microsoft (to show that the specs were complete and not just a Microsoft trick to make everyone feel warm and fuzzy).

So the code in Rotor isn't the *actual* .NET code, but it bears many similarities as most of the design is implied in the ECMA spec.

But to prove it's independent, Rotor has bugs that .NET doesn't and vice versa.

> <snip more cool docs. Thank you.>
>
> > The main argument is that MSIL is actually compiled, it's not
> > interpreted, so it doesn't have to emulate some system services
> > like the JVM does (though I'm not sure modern JVMs do this or
> > not).
>
> Since java 1.2 java uses a Just In Time compiler.

Yeah, but it's not quite the same thing from what I understand.

Apparently this isn't up for debate because I haven't heard anyone (even Gosling who never lets MS get away with anything) criticize MS' statements in this regard. Java is interpreted (and has a JIT which improves performance), whereas .NET is compiled and the compiled version is cached so future runnings of the program go faster.

You'll have to talk with Anders and James to figure out the details because I'm not educated enough on the subject to discuss it thoroughly. I just know that the MS guys are always careful to point out, "it's NOT interpreted".

> Experimentally there's also been a Transmeta Crusoe masquerading
> as a jvm. (Though it's not really a VM if you can kick it, now is it?)

lol, true. There are several Java hardware vendors already, as a matter of fact.

> [1] Linux already dominates on the wristwatch. The desktop is NeXT!

Indeed!

-c Received on Sat Jan 11 2003 - 09:58:31 CST