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Re: Comparison of Java, C# for development on Windows and future for them

From: Chad Myers <cmyers_at_N0.SP.4M.austin.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 00:28:45 GMT
Message-ID: <1zJT9.32977$DN6.824504@twister.austin.rr.com>

"kim bruning" <kim_at_NObruning.SPAMdemon.HEREnl.invalid> wrote in message news:69knva.ok8.ln_at_bruning.demon.nl...
> Chad Myers <cmyers_at_n0.sp.4m.austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > "kim bruning" <kim_at_NObruning.SPAMdemon.HEREnl.invalid> wrote in
message
> > news:98tmva.m3u.ln_at_bruning.demon.nl...
> >>
> >> .Net is covered by Ximian. SQL is not an MS invention, and SQL
> >> support on unix platforms is pervasive.
>
> > Actually, SQL 7 and SQL 2000 are MS inventions.
>
> And here I was thinking we were talking about the
> Structured Query Language.

Ah. True. For some reason the way you said that it implied MS SQL Server, not SQL.

> >> Office compatibility is
> >> offered by multiple unix and linux vendors and project groups.
> > *snicker*
>
> Word documents can be read with strings. :-P
> If it turns out the formatting wasn't totally spurious and useless
> you can always use staroffice and use the "print to file" option
> to make some nice postscript.
>
> >> Visual Studio is "Not The Unix Way", though there are several
> >> other ides available.
>
> > But not of the caliber of VS.NET, especially for C++ work.
>
> Let's not start another IDE war. Let's just say I'm a vi addict and
> leave it at that, ok?

vi is an editor, not an IDE. You're comparing apples to oranges.

VS.NET is the best C++ IDE. vi may or may not be the best text editor. Actually, ed is the best text editor. In fact, the word "editor" comes from ed, not "viitor" or "emacsitor" http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html

"And ed doesn't waste space on my Timex Sinclair. Just look:

-rwxr-xr-x  1 root          24 Oct 29  1929 /bin/ed
-rwxr-xr-t  4 root     1310720 Jan  1  1970 /usr/ucb/vi
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root  5.89824e37 Oct 22  1990 /usr/bin/emacs"

<grin>

>
> >> Finally Exchange is the only thing that
> >> isn't pervasive on unix. Unix people like to feel they have
> >> superior tools to that. ;-)
>
> > Oh yeah, POP3/SMTP is far superior to Exchange. Where's that
> > all-inclusive collaboration package for *nix?
>
> I think it's called finger. ;-)

You can do calendar scheduling over finger? :) What about that ever-popular quote service?

>
> > Why do the Linux folk try to duplicate Outlook (see Evolution)?
>
> Why, to allow linux machines to displace windows machines
> entirely of course. World domination!

Erm. Right. *looks at watch*. Wow, Linux gained 0.2% on the desktop in the past 2 years or so on the desktop. At that rate, it'll be about 940 years or so before Linux dominates. ;)

>
> > Twice, as a matter of fact. They never completed the submission
process.
>
> >> There's nothing stopping MS from trying the same.
>
> > Actually, it's already done. The CIL and C# are standards and cannot
> > be "pulled" anymore.
>
> As soon as I get me a linux version of C#, I'll certainly look into
it.

Mono: CLI implementation on Linux: www.go-mono.com Mono C#: An ECMA CSharp compiler for Linux:

     http://www.go-mono.com/c-sharp.html

Note that C# is just a language. Java is a langauge and a framework. C# is a language and .NET is the framework.

> > MS has also got preliminary approval for ISO standardization
process.
>
> If c# passes this, then I will learn c#.

ISO close to approving C#, CLI standards: http://tinyurl.com/4bdp [Infoworld]

"The programming language C#, as well as the CLI (Common  Language Infrastructure), have passed through a working group  within the ISO (International Organization for Standardization)  and will likely be approved by January, said John Montgomery,  group product manager with Microsoft's .Net developer platform  group."

Also, Microsoft released Rotor (aka Shared Source CLI - SSCLI) which runs on Windows, *BSD, MacOS X, and Linux. It's full source including the CLR, FCL, and C# compiler.

>
> >> > the best part of C# I like is it does not have performance issues
of
> >> > Java.
> >>
> >> If you say so. Isn't C# supposed to be a VM based langauge too?
>
> > Kind of. The CLR is "like" a VM, but not true in the Java sense.
> > For all intents and purposes, I guess it is.
>
> I'd love to look at a white paper on this!

The ECMA spec is a good start
http://www.ecma.ch/ecma1/STAND/ecma-335.htm

I once found a couple docs on the CLR architecture on MSDN, but Google is being stupid right now and I can't find them.

I did find this though:
http://www.ondotnet.com/topics/dotnet/fcl.net

Which has some discussions.

The main argument is that MSIL is actually compiled, it's not interpreted, so it doesn't have to emulate some system services like the JVM does (though I'm not sure modern JVMs do this or not).

>
> >> In that case implementations of Java and C# ought to roughly be
> >> equally fast in the long run.
>
> > In theory, but apparently not in practice.
>
> Long run. I was covering my rear there. :-)

lol, true.

-c Received on Fri Jan 10 2003 - 18:28:45 CST

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