Re: whats going on

I agree with you Richard. I was working with a customer who told me a story about a famous rabbi. This rabbi was asked if he could teach the student the Torah while he(the student) was standing on one foot. The Rabbi's reply was "Read it, learn it." I think the point of the story is that learning complex things have a benefit far beyond the actual "facts" or knowledge about the specific thing that one is studying. The journey is more important than the destination. It is this deep knowledge - understanding of the concepts, not being able to parrot things - and problem solving ability that puts one far above the normal dull average. Yes, there is a difference between the MS world and the Oracle world. Today I had to generate a query based upon the system catalogs in SQLServer - having to do with replication - and so I read the online book to figure out what table I would have to look at. Useless, they just tell you how to view it in a pretty GUI in the over 100 hits I got back searching for the information. I never found the information. Instead I went spelunking in the tables and found it. MS people love the GUI; well that's fine, but you then have no concept of how it works underneath and thus if something isn't working you can't debug it. At least in Oracle I can look in a manual and see complete definitions of the system catalogs. (something pretty basic at least as it pertains to CODD - the rule you should be able to query the meta data in the same manner as the regular data)

Jim

"Richard Foote" <richard.foote_at_bigpond.com> wrote in message news:h_7S8.20965$Hj3.65954_at_newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> The issue here is simply one of human nature. It is human nature to try
and
> cut corners, take the "easy" way, accomplish a task by doing as little as
> possible, get rich quick, etc. You see it everywhere. People trying to
lose
> weight the "easy" way by wearing some weird device instead of doing
regular
> exercise and eating properly. People buying the latest DVD player the
"easy"
> way by plonking it on a credit card and paying for it endlessly instead of
> saving for it and buying it when it can be afforded. I could go on but you
> get the drift.
>
> Unfortunately, when it comes to Oracle and Oracle DBAing specifically,
there
> really isn't an easy way. The Oracle database is a very clever,
complicated,
> sophisticated product that requires a great deal of effort to learn and
> fully comprehend. Some people see this as a bad thing but it's not, it's
> Oracle's great strength because it Oracle's versatility and flexibility
that
> allows it to be effective in all the different complicated and
sophisticated
> applications that it needs to be. However people see this as a bad thing
> because there is no easy way to grasp all this and apply it effectively.
>
> Doesn't stop people trying the easy way though and unfortunately there are
> indeed a lot of people who try. The results are often disastrous.
Newsgroups
> such as this are great for those after the quick learn. However,
newsgroups
> are also great for those after a point of view, or who have legitimately
> tried to find the answer elsewhere without success, who have a time issue
> and use this as an option for the solution or who have done the hard yards
> and see this as way of continuing the learning process. And it's people
such
> as Daniel, Sybrand, Niall, Howard and everyone else who contributes to the
> newsgroup so selfishly that need to be congratulated on making it all
> possible.
>
> How to address the issue of the incompetent DBA. Well, it ain't easy
because
> you can't change human nature. For a start though, having an effective OCP
> program would help. Commercial pilots have to undergo training and testing
> to ensure they can actually fly and land the thing in an emergency.
> Answering a few multiple choice questions is not sufficient proof of
> competency for a pilot, why should a DBA with an organisations valuable
data
> and systems in their care be any different ? Have a real test (which could
> be in a simulated environment) where someone has to install Oracle, and
> set-up a database, and manage those components and tune the database and
> recovery the database, etc. If you can't land the plane, you can't fly. If
> you can't recover that datafile, you can't DBA. It's more expensive to
> set-up (enough said) but it's where we need to go. And no, attending that
> one course is not sufficient.
>
> Having more affordable training would also help though. I worked for
Oracle
> for many years and although the courses aren't perfect, they're an
excellent
> introduction to Oracle (and in some cases offer excellent advanced subject
> matter as well). However, the cost is soooo expensive and a big turn off
for
> many people (who hence follow the "easy" road). It's a battle I never won
> but by making the training affordable and encouraging rather than not
> encouraging people to do the training would be a big plus for the industry
> (and importantly Oracle Corp as well).
>
> And finally there needs to be a realisation by the IT decision makers out
> there that the IT infrastructure is vital for the success of the
> organisation, that you need sophisticated software to stay ahead and that
> there is no "easy" way for people to gain the required knowledge without
> much training and experience. Unfortunately, IT managers and decision
makers
> are human as well and if there's an "easy" way, they'll find it. Can't
win.
>
> Regards
>
> Richard
>
> "shrinad_at_ora-india.com" <daekw_at_yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:afam95$fvs$00$2_at_news.t-online.com...
> > why nobody can read documentation ??
> >
> > most of the questions in this newsgroup are ridiculous !!
> >
> > is the level of the questions in this group comparable with the
knowledge
> in
> > the industry ?
> >
> > IT professional saying learning is boring we want just click a round
> >
> > can somebody without technical background, without studying,
> > without sweat and pain achieve something usefull with oracle ( in 3 days
> at
> > the best ) ?
> >
> > question in this group:
> > ( help I cannot operate winzip, for unzipping oracle, I just want to
build
> a
> > litte RAC system)
> >
> >
> > no he cannot and this is fine. but me fear is will this fall back to the
> > product Oracle ??
> >
> > I have heard a lot of "professionals" saying, oracle is to hard to work
> for
> > me.
> > I do not like learning, I will tell my boss go for sqlserver, because it
> is
> > "better"
> > for me.
> >
> > Most of the "professionals" want to click a little. Limits of the
product
> > are not
> > a concern of these people, because this will net be their personal
fault.
> >
> > They can tell their boss, this doesnt work its not my fault. A product
> which
> > is
> > complicated and unlimited like Oracle they do not like, because it would
> be
> > their fault .
> >
> > Also companies like to split their systems in a lot of small databases
> > all working with incompatible applications, and all operated by clueless
> > people.
> >
> > This is not good for Oracle, because this is the microsoft way.
> >
> > Will this change in the future because billions of dollars were spend
with
> > nightmare systems, companies IT infrastructure is a utter patchwork
today.
> >
> > so what will be the future for Oracle in this environment ???
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Received on Tue Jun 25 2002 - 21:07:02 CDT