Re: Assistance needed with creating tables in oracle.

KPK wrote:

> Well then put me in that .1%. I worked as a Sybase DBA for 4 years prior to
> moving into application development. I fully understand how it works on
> BOTH sides (DBA and developer) and neither of our jobs receive the proper
> respect and thanks they should. I do agree that there are developers out
> there who should not be allowed to touch a keyboard as well. Unfortunately,
> many colleges are now teaching students how to properly model their
> applications and leve the database as an afterthought. I was taught to
> concentrate on good database design based on business requirements and then
> model the application accordingly. What I've found over the years is that
> the heads of IT usually bring the DBA in on meetings with consultants early
> on to get their thoughts on the consultant's design suggestions, but rarely
> do they permit the DBA to work closely with the developer to ensure that the
> application performs well on the database side and reduces the headaches the
> DBA often has to clean up the mess. Talk about thankless jobs. I believe
> the CDW commercials sum it up best when they ask "What other impossible
> task can we assign to IT?". For the record, I have NEVER once blamed a DBA
> for an application screw up. I always put the blame squarely where it
> belongs. On Management who made the screw up decisions in the first place
> to reduce cost by reducing design and testing time on the project. It has
> never failed in the last 10+ years I've been involved with Enterprise
> Application Integration projects. Everytime cost becomes the ONLY issue,
> the design suffers and bugs abound!!! Then the customer comes out screaming
> at the consulting firm's IDIOT manager who made the messed up decision in
> the first place. He then turns around and expects the developer to "patch"
> the problem instead of allow them to do it correctly.
>
> Patches are another BIG problem as well because they simply DON'T WORK!
> They introduce MORE BUGS and the problem gets worse and worse and that's
> when the DBA is looked upon as the scape goat by IT Management.
>
> Sybrand, I must apologize to you in part because thinking back to my Sybase
> DBA days, I do remember how hard it is on you guys. I don't apologize,
> however for the remainder of my initial reply. We are the last two groups
> of people who should be hammering one another. BTW. This is NOT a SQL
> Server to Oracle migration. We are adding support for Oracle in addition to
> our current support for Sybase and SQL Server and YES, we have not been
> allocated enough time to adequately (in my opinion) test what we've done so
> far. Unfortunately, "Doing it Right the First Time" is just not enough to
> justify the additional resources and cost. Come to think of it! It never
> has been!
>
> Management Thoughts: "Write it now. Fix it later."
> Developers Thoughts: "Design it Now, Test It and then Deploy to get
> feedback."
>
> "Sybrand Bakker" <postbus_at_sybrandb.demon.nl> wrote in message
> news:sipsdu4gsp8m352dbuec8dn62emvfks5la_at_4ax.com...
> > On Sun, 12 May 2002 06:56:05 -0700, "KPK" <kpkeller_at_alltel.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Bottom line (and apparently Mr. Bakker fails
> > >to understand this) is that we "developers" typically don't get the time
> to
> > >do things the correct way because upper management unfortunately and
> often
> > >times make the decisions.
> > >
> > >Although they (mostly) have no experience in Software Engineering or
> > >development processes, they look at "time" and "cost". That's it. How
> much
> > >time will it take to get "something" out to the customer and how much
> will
> > >it cost them before they go out and look for another vendor that can do
> it
> > >for less. When things bogg down and bugs begin to surface (usually do to
> > >the lack of adequate testing time), then it's our (developers) fault. I
> > >just don't need or want the extra headache from folks like Mr. Bakker.
> >
> >
> > Unfortunately Mr. Bakker belongs to the folks that have to clean out
> > the mess and are
> > *always blamed by developers*
> > for bad database performance, while it is perfectly clear developer's
> > crappy code is causing the problem. Happens in 99.9 percent of all the
> > sqlserver - oracle migration projects, as most sqlserver developers
> > think Oracle is sqlserver sold by a different vendor.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> >
> > Sybrand Bakker, Senior Oracle DBA
> >
> > To reply remove -verwijderdit from my e-mail address

Perhaps you will all be pleased to know that the University of Washington, Winter Quarter 2003, has agreed to a course for mid-level managers, on how to manage technology projects.

I plan to pull no punches.

So if you, or anyone else here on the board, have examples you think might be instructive on how managers who don't understand technology can set up a project for failure I would be interested in receiving them.

Thanks in advance.

Daniel Morgan Received on Sun May 12 2002 - 12:33:22 CDT