Re: Is Sr. DBAs afraid of not be able to pass cert exam ??

Thank you.

Daniel Morgan

Pete Sharman wrote:

> OK, it's taken some time because I do this as my night job ;), but here's
> what I've been able to find.
>
> 1. The original problem highlighted by Daniel (a subquery that defines a
> view cannot contain an ORDER BY clause) is as Daniel mentioned incorrect in
> Couchman's book. Unfortunately, as I found out it was also incorrect in the
> Introduction to Oracle9i: SQL courseware. I have logged this as a bug in
> the courseware. and followed up with the Certification Program Manager to
> see if the bug made it's way into the exam. Her response was (and I quote):
>
> "The problem in the Oracle9i SQL courseware which you brought to our
> attention last week is not duplicated in the exam. Thank you again for
> checking on this with us!"
>
> 2. I checked the other comments sent to me by Daniel, and none of these are
> reflected in the courseware (and therefore should not be reflected in the
> exam either).
>
> 3. I've also followed up with the lead curriculum developer and the coure
> development manager for the courseware so they are aware of the issue.
>
> --
> HTH. Additions and corrections welcome.
>
> Pete
> Author of "Oracle8i: Architecture and Administration Exam Cram"
>
> "Controlling developers is like herding cats."
> Kevin Loney, Oracle DBA Handbook
>
> "Oh no, it's not. It's much harder than that!"
> Bruce Pihlamae, long-term Oracle DBA
>
> "Daniel A. Morgan" <damorgan_at_exesolutions.com> wrote in message
> news:3C59B68D.A6CFF9CF_at_exesolutions.com...
> > Here are just a few you may have missed.
> >
> > Pg 128: When you do a group by clause in your query, all the nongroup
> > expressions in the column clause of the query must appear before the
> grouped
> > expression in the column clause.
> >
> > This is not true in either 8i or 9i.
> >
> > Pg 163: Other types of views that you will learn about in Chapter 7 do not
> > support the use of the order by clause.
> >
> > Not true. And luckily the error is not repeated in Chapter 7.
> >
> > Pg 207: However, if the select statement includes a specific list of
> columns
> > named in the column clause, your create table clause must list the columns
> you
> > want in the table to include, enclosed in parenthesis.
> >
> > Not true in 8i or 9i.
> >
> > Pg 326: You can index a column that contains NULL or repeated values, as
> well,
> > simply by eliminating the unique keyword.
> >
> > As far as I know never correct in Oracle. You have always been able to
> create a
> > unique index on a column with NULLs.
> >
> > And there are many more.
> >
> > Daniel Morgan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Pete Sharman wrote:
> >
> > > Daniel
> > >
> > > Since I'm not part of the certification group, no I can't tell you if
> there
> > > are errors in the OCP exams. The only time I see the exams is when I do
> > > them myself, and I haven't done the Intro to SQL exam.
> > >
> > > However, I looked back to the previous discussion we had on this to find
> > > examples of the gross errors you mention. Unfortunately the only one I
> > > could see (since our news server seems to age messages out) was one
> where
> > > you mentioned that the book said you can't do an ORDER BY in the
> subquery to
> > > create a view. That is of course something that is possible to do, as
> you
> > > stated:
> > >
> > > SQL*Plus: Release 9.2.0.0.0 - Beta on Thu Jan 31 14:05:41 2002
> > >
> > > (c) Copyright 2001 Oracle Corporation. All rights reserved.
> > >
> > > SQL> connect / as sysdba
> > > Connected.
> > >
> > > SQL> CREATE VIEW empvu80
> > > 2 AS SELECT employee_id, last_name, salary
> > > 3 FROM hr.employees
> > > 4 WHERE department_id = 80
> > > 5 ORDER BY last_name;
> > >
> > > View created.
> > >
> > > All I can do is look at the courseware which is what is used to create
> the
> > > OCP exams. In this case, I went to the Oracle9i Introduction to SQL
> course,
> > > which I think matches the book you originally highlighted the problems
> with.
> > > In chapter 11 of that course, it states (and I quote):
> > >
> > > . The subquery that defines the view cannot contain an ORDER BY clause.
> The
> > > ORDER BY
> > >
> > > clause is specified when you retrieve data from the view.
> > >
> > > It would therefore seem that the blame is less Jason's than in the wrong
> > > material in the courseware (although I would venture to say that an
> author
> > > has some responsibility to verify the truth of statements rather than
> just
> > > believing them). From what I understand, the actual question writers
> for
> > > the OCP exam are people that are knowledgeable in how to write
> meaningful
> > > exam questions, not necessarily people who know the ins and outs of the
> > > Oracle database. As a result, the OCP questions simply reflect the
> > > courseware, so the problem that needs to be addressed here is the
> courseware
> > > (with an automatic flow on to fixing the problem in the OCP exam).
> > >
> > > SO, the next step is to look at the courseware. We have a mechanism for
> > > logging bugs against particular courses internally. I went and looked
> at
> > > the bugs for the 9i course and this specific issue wasn't there.
> > >
> > > To ensure this issue is addressed, I can do two things:
> > >
> > > 1. Since I've never looked at this course or Jason's book, I'm not
> overly
> > > familiar with them. For the sake of future releases of the courseware
> and
> > > the OCP, I would ask you (if you have this) to send me a list of the
> > > problems you know about. I will log these as bugs for the course, and
> the
> > > next release of the course will no longer suffer from this problem. I
> know
> > > this is probably asking a bit much and it's certainly not your
> > > responsibility, but this will be the quickest way of addressing the
> problem.
> > >
> > > 2. I will also raise the issue with the Certification Program manager
> and
> > > ask for her comments, which I will bring back to this forum. If anyone
> > > feels that have unfairly failed an exam because of these issues, send me
> an
> > > email (peter.sharman_at_oracle.com - please don't send to the group) and I
> will
> > > also raise that with the Certification Program manager. I can't promise
> > > anything can be done about it though, since it's totally outside of my
> > > sphere of influence.
> > >
> > > I'm also willing to discuss this offline with anyone who feels the need
> to
> > > do so.
> > >
> > > --
> > > HTH. Additions and corrections welcome.
> > >
> > > Pete
> > > Author of "Oracle8i: Architecture and Administration Exam Cram"
> > >
> > > "Controlling developers is like herding cats."
> > > Kevin Loney, Oracle DBA Handbook
> > >
> > > "Oh no, it's not. It's much harder than that!"
> > > Bruce Pihlamae, long-term Oracle DBA
> > >
> > > "Daniel A. Morgan" <damorgan_at_exesolutions.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3C592AE1.B0E78D3B_at_exesolutions.com...
> > > > Thank you for your thoughtful and valuable input. Now can you explain
> to
> > > us why
> > > > we are seeing gross errors of fact in the Oracle Press books that are
> for
> > > OCP
> > > > training? My email to Jason Couchman has gone (as must confess I
> > > anticipated)
> > > > unanswered.
> > > >
> > > > And should we infer that it is just the book that is incorrect ... or
> that
> > > the
> > > > book is an accurate reflection of the test and that the test too is
> > > incorrect?
> > > >
> > > > On the subject of Oracle's education courses I have always found them
> > > valuable
> > > > ... if viewed in the context of what they are. They are a great way to
> get
> > > > started with a new product or new release of a product. They are not,
> in
> > > my
> > > > estimation, intended to create competency.
> > > >
> > > > Thank you.
> > > >
> > > > Daniel Morgan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Pete Sharman wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I always find these discussions fascinating, particularly since my
> role
> > > in
> > > > > Oracle is half training our consultants on new releases of the
> database.
> > > > > One of the things I've always done in my time with Oracle (which is
> over
> > > 7
> > > > > years now) is to review the course material as it comes out, so I'd
> like
> > > to
> > > > > make some comments on Howard's viewpoint.
> > > > >
> > > > > Firstly, one of the major difficulties when developing courseware
> for
> > > > > something with as many different capabilities as the Oracle database
> has
> > > is
> > > > > determining what to include and what not to include in the
> courseware.
> > > If
> > > > > we covered everything you needed to know to be a competent DBA in
> the
> > > basic
> > > > > training (and by that I mean the DBA Fundamentals I and II courses
> and
> > > the
> > > > > Performance Tuning course), guess what? You'd probably be paying
> for 6
> > > > > months worth of training (OK, maybe I exaggerate, but you get the
> > > point).
> > > > > That's why the basic training was developed in the way it was - to
> give
> > > you
> > > > > the basic knowledge you need to be able to perform normal DBA tasks.
> > > > >
> > > > > As a result, some of the less frequently used functionality must be
> left
> > > out
> > > > > of that course. I'd include things like partitioning in that
> category.
> > > I'm
> > > > > not sure what the percentage is, but if you polled people in this
> > > newsgroup
> > > > > I think you would find less than 50% actually use it. However, it
> is
> > > still
> > > > > important to have training on this, and that's why we develop more
> > > advanced
> > > > > courseware. The more advanced courseware expects you to know the
> > > > > fundamentals, and then spend more time being trained on things like
> > > > > Partitioning, AQ, Advanced Replication and so on.
> > > > >
> > > > > Secondly, to get valuable training on more complex functionality
> > > requires
> > > > > dedicated courseware. Take, for example, RAC. One of the hardest
> parts
> > > of
> > > > > writing the 9i New Features for Administrators course was Chapter
> 12,
> > > Real
> > > > > Application Clusters. It's an incredibly important are of
> knowledge,
> > > and
> > > > > one that is far more widely accepted as useful to the general Oracle
> > > > > population than OPS ever was. However, we already have a full 5
> days
> > > for
> > > > > that course. To cover it in more detail is just not possible, so we
> > > > > introduce it in the 9i NFDBA course so people are aware of how
> useful
> > > that
> > > > > technology is. There is a separate 5 day course on RAC due to be
> > > released
> > > > > soon, which takes you into the gory detail you need to know for how
> to
> > > > > implement and use it. I'd venture to say that's the major
> difference
> > > > > between the New Features course and any other one. The New Features
> > > course
> > > > > has so many areas to cover that it can only introduce the concepts
> to
> > > you,
> > > > > which you then need to investigate more (either yourself or on
> > > additional
> > > > > training).
> > > > >
> > > > > Finally let me say where I see OCP to be valuable, personally. I
> > > started
> > > > > life in Oracle as a DBA instructor after 4 years as a DBA before
> joining
> > > > > Oracle. I started the certification for one reason only - it got
> really
> > > > > embarassing as an instructor for someone to say "Are you a certified
> > > DBA?"
> > > > > and to have to answer no. Now that I'm no longer in Oracle
> Education,
> > > that
> > > > > is far less of a hassle, but I continue to keep up my certification.
> > > The
> > > > > reasons? One - it's cheaper to keep it up by doing the New Features
> > > exam
> > > > > each time than it would be to renew it afresh if I let it expire.
> Two -
> > > > > there are always areas in the exams that I don't know because I
> don't
> > > use
> > > > > them in my day to day job, so it's really useful to find out about
> this
> > > > > stuff so I can determine if it would be useful to employ when I do
> need
> > > it.
> > > > > Three - before I joined Oracle, I lost out on a promotion purely snd
> > > simply
> > > > > because the other guy had a piece of paper and I didn't. That's all
> > > they
> > > > > could separate us on, and it ended up costing me thousands of
> dollars
> > > over
> > > > > the next couple of years. :(
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > HTH. Additions and corrections welcome.
> > > > >
> > > > > Pete
> > > > > Author of "Oracle8i: Architecture and Administration Exam Cram"
> > > > >
> > > > > "Controlling developers is like herding cats."
> > > > > Kevin Loney, Oracle DBA Handbook
> > > > >
> > > > > "Oh no, it's not. It's much harder than that!"
> > > > > Bruce Pihlamae, long-term Oracle DBA
> > > > >
> > > > > "Howard J. Rogers" <dba_at_hjrdba.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3c583ff4$0$8455$afc38c87_at_news.optusnet.com.au...
> > > > > > I might agree with you, except that the DBA stream for the OCP
> doesn't
> > > > > > mention partitioning once (it's not even on the Performance Tuning
> > > course,
> > > > > > which is madness). It doesn't mention Advanced Replication at all
> > > (unless
> > > > > > you're upgrading to 9i OCP, in whcih case it mysteriously makes an
> > > > > > appearance). It doesn't deal with Advanced Queueing. It doesn't
> deal
> > > > > with
> > > > > > Parallel Server (again, 9i upgrade has 1 rather scanty chapter
> devoted
> > > to
> > > > > > RACs).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm not saying that the DBA stream is not challenging or
> > > informative -look
> > > > > > at the number of posts we get here for 'why can't I back up my
> online
> > > redo
> > > > > > logs?', as a simple example. But forget all this nonsense about
> 'you
> > > will
> > > > > > learn *all* the features of the product'. You won't, simple as
> that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If all you have is an OCP, it tells me that you know the basics.
> Sort
> > > of.
> > > > > > And that's about it. The real nub of complex database
> administration
> > > is
> > > > > > entirely absent (which is frustrating enough as an instructor, let
> > > alone
> > > > > as
> > > > > > a would-be DBA who actually wants to learn his craft).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > HJR
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > ------------------------------------------
> > > > > > Oracle Resources: http://www.hjrdba.com
> > > > > > ============================
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Christian Svensson" <chse30_at_hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:ccc2a7eb.0201300648.f6fdd3_at_posting.google.com...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >Last I just want say if a future employer have to choose
> between
> > > two
> > > > > > > > >consultants with exact same years of experience and one of
> them
> > > have
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > >DBA OCP, which one do you think they will think of most ?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That is IMHO a very good argument. And the ONLY one going for
> OCP
> > > > > > > > certification in its present format.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The only one ? How about:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - You will get paid more (if your employer agree to this of
> course)
> > > > > > > - You will learn more in the studying process, i.e you will be
> aware
> > > > > > > of "all" the features/options
> > > > > > > - You get a written proof of you knowledge (you should of course
> > > also
> > > > > > > have at least a year of practical experience)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I also want to make it crystal clear that I dont belive in
> studying
> > > 1
> > > > > > > week about 12 hours a day and then take the exam and you are
> > > > > > > automatically an Oracle DBA. To be a DBA you need experience,
> end of
> > > > > > > discussion. But studying for the OCP is in my mind one way to
> get a
> > > > > > > better DBA or to get a better understanding of Oracle.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regards.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > /Christian
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> >
Received on Mon Feb 11 2002 - 16:32:47 CST