Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: From ORACLE-L to DATABASE-L?

I was a bit more optimistic...60 minutes. :)

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 12:28 PM, Kellyn Pot'Vin-Gorman <dbakevlar_at_gmail.com
> wrote:

> 15 minutes of fame is not always a good thing, Alfredo.... :)
>
>
>
> [image: Kellyn Pot'Vin on about.me]
>
> *Kellyn Pot'Vin-Gorman*
> DBAKevlar Blog <http://dbakevlar.com>
> President Rocky Mtn. Oracle User Group <http://www.rmoug.org/>
> President Denver SQL Server User Group <http://denversql.org/>
> about.me/dbakevlar
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 11:26 AM, Alfredo Abate <alfredo.abate_at_gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> #oraclewtf might actually get some traction on Twitter. :)
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 7:50 AM, Jeff Smith <jeff.d.smith_at_oracle.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I’ve tried to get #oraclehelp going before, but maybe #oraclewtf was the
>>> way to go…although now I can’t officially endorse this direction.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Kellyn Pot'Vin-Gorman <dbakevlar_at_gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* Friday, March 16, 2018 11:02 PM
>>> *To:* christopherdtaylor1994_at_gmail.com
>>> *Cc:* ORACLE-L <oracle-l_at_freelists.org>; Tim Gorman <tim.evdbt_at_gmail.com>;
>>> donald.freeman.ctr_at_ablcda.navy.mil
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: From ORACLE-L to DATABASE-L?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You do realize the high percentage of dyslexia in IT are going to read
>>> that as “Oracle WTF” right? :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 6:53 PM Chris Taylor <
>>> christopherdtaylor1994_at_gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> One thing I got from this thread is we also need a Twitter hash tag...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> #orclftw ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 12:22 PM Freeman, Donald G. CTR <
>>> donald.freeman.ctr_at_ablcda.navy.mil> wrote:
>>>
>>> Tim, don't take it as a criticism. I've been following you since
>>> Compuserve days. When I was just stumbling my way into Oracle you
>>> answered one of the first couple of questions I asked about SQL language :D.
>>>
>>> Donald Freeman
>>> Database Administrator
>>> Imagine One Technology & Management, Ltd.
>>> Robin Hood Road (RHR) Facility, Norfolk, VA 23513
>>> Telephone: (757)-852-7724 <(757)%20852-7724> Commercial
>>> Telephone: (717)-497-1037 <(717)%20497-1037> Mobile
>>> Telephone: (757)-852-7777 <(757)%20852-7777> PMO-IT Help Desk
>>> donald.freeman.ctr_at_ablcda.navy.mil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Tim Gorman [mailto:tim.evdbt_at_gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2018 11:06 AM
>>> To: Freeman, Donald G. CTR; ORACLE-L
>>> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: From ORACLE-L to DATABASE-L?
>>>
>>> It was just an idea. Apparently not a good one.
>>>
>>> Thanks for the feedback.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/16/18 06:49, Freeman, Donald G. CTR wrote:
>>> > Things I learned from history: Just before things die they expand.
>>> If I was just starting out I think I would be looking for an Oracle group
>>> and not a database group. I think we would be better off staying as an
>>> Oracle group. I'm pretty confident that whatever issue I have somebody
>>> here knows the answer.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Donald Freeman
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org [mailto:oracle-l-bounce_at_freeli
>>> sts.org] On Behalf Of Robert Freeman
>>> > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2018 12:29 PM
>>> > To: Tim Gorman; ORACLE-L
>>> > Subject: [Non-DoD Source] RE: From ORACLE-L to DATABASE-L?
>>> >
>>> > Tim,
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > My two cents… and of course, some of this depends on how much time you
>>> really want to invest in all of this… J
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > There is a lot of benefit in maintaining the Oracle specific focus of
>>> ORACLE-L:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > – Technology specific content means that there is less sifting
>>> through the “cross-pollination” of topics to get to the technology specific
>>> question you have. Purity is important I think.
>>> >
>>> > – I would suspect that technology specific lists will attract
>>> those who specialize in those specific technologies. A pure stack is
>>> probably likely to get more authoritive answers than a watered down stack.
>>> >
>>> > o I’ve seen technology neutral boards/lists often provide inaccurate
>>> information posted by folks who are not spending a lot of time with the
>>> technology they offer answers on. I think you would see a lot more “I
>>> think” or “I guess” kinds of answers.
>>> >
>>> > o I’ve also seen technology neutral boards/lists have holy wars
>>> about the various stacks, that are no fun. Granted, many of those threads
>>> eventually get policed.
>>> >
>>> > – In many cases, standards, processes, terminology and other
>>> things differ across stacks. This could confuse beginners. Things in the
>>> Oracle world change fast enough – multiply that several times for each
>>> additional stack you add to the mailing list.
>>> >
>>> > – You have beginners here often, and I’d be concerned that
>>> cross-technology/stack posting could get confusing for them.
>>> >
>>> > – With all of the stacks, there is such depth and breadth that
>>> I’d be afraid a less focused mailing list would become less useful.
>>> >
>>> > – A less focused technology list will be harder to search for
>>> the answer you are looking for.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > This reasoning extends to other active and emerging database stacks,
>>> they should have their own lists.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Then the question that comes to my mind is, can we have our cake and
>>> eat it too?
>>> >
>>> > Why not source, from these DB specific lists, a consolidated and
>>> searchable list from all database specific lists? Something like DBALL-L. I
>>> would think that it would be easy to automate the copying of threads to
>>> such a list? This would be helpful for those who want to look for topics
>>> related to more than one stack.
>>> >
>>> > I am debating if one should allow posts in the DBALL-L list… That
>>> would require some level of moderation to ensure that posts don’t really
>>> belong in a database specific list, though I do suggest a possible
>>> DBINTEGRATION-L list that could be the place to post cross-platform
>>> questions.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Second, (just thinking aloud here) with respect to social media - Is
>>> there some way that we can integrate lists like ORACLE-L into social media
>>> platforms like twitter, facebook and linked in (and maybe that’s already
>>> done in some way – I have largely removed myself from social media – I just
>>> was finding the signal to noise ratio - inefficient)?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Is there some way to integrate the technologies so that we can
>>> actually improve the usability of all of them? Perhaps such a thing is more
>>> effort that it’s worth…. I just wonder if there is an ORACLE-L post, if
>>> there should not be some related tweet that goes out to the ORACLE-L
>>> twitter subscribers with maybe a subject and link to the post (just
>>> thinking aloud here – there could be great arguments not to do this). Or a
>>> Linked in daily post with the digest contents of Oracle-L…?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Along with ORACLE-L or MSSQL-L I think there is a good argument for a
>>> few other lists? (depending on how many lists one wants to have/manage).
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > For example:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > – DBALL-L – Integrated list of all *-L lists for those who love
>>> super cross-pollination.
>>> >
>>> > – DBINTEGRATION-L - List services for those trying to integrate
>>> stacks. I think such a list could certainly be cross-stack.
>>> >
>>> > – DBMIGRATION-L – List services for those migrating between
>>> database stacks.
>>> >
>>> > – DBCLOUD-L – List services specific to database cloud offerings
>>> >
>>> > – DATASCIENCE-L – List services related to data science topics.
>>> >
>>> > – DBREPLICATION-L – List services related to replication
>>> services like Golden Gate or Shareplex
>>> >
>>> > – DBRETIREEARLY-L – Self-explanatory – Currently among my
>>> favorite list ideas.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I guess, in part, all of this really boils down to what is the need of
>>> the community? What will drive them to use the tool that has been so
>>> wonderful in the past – Namely Oracle-L.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > My thoughts…. VMMV….. Cheers!!
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > RF
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Robert G. Freeman
>>> >
>>> > Deliverer of Data
>>> >
>>> > Businessolver
>>> >
>>> > Cell: 801-703-3405 <(801)%20703-3405>
>>> >
>>> > Anon: Science. If you don’t make mistakes, you’re doing it wrong. If
>>> you don’t correct those mistakes, you’re doing it really wrong. If can’t
>>> accept that you’re mistaken, you’re not doing it at all.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org [mailto:oracle-l-bounce_at_freeli
>>> sts.org] On Behalf Of Stefan Knecht
>>> > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2018 10:48 AM
>>> > To: Tim Gorman <tim.evdbt_at_gmail.com>
>>> > Cc: ORACLE-L <oracle-l_at_freelists.org>
>>> > Subject: Re: From ORACLE-L to DATABASE-L?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Personally, my vote would be oracle-only. Perhaps add a second list
>>> maintained with the same style that is for other DBMS.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 10:42 PM, Zahir Mohideen <zahir.dba_at_gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Tim -
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > it is a great idea to expand oracle_l to database_l .
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > My question is , if we were to expand , are we restricting the
>>> discussions to RDBMS only or include NOSQL dbs as well.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Usually , we ( I am also in SQL server side ) communicate in
>>> Twitter with #sqlhelp tag .
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > - Zahir
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Zahir Mohideen
>>> > http://mfzahirdba.blogspot.com/
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__mfzahirdba.blogspot.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=N2hWu5HFsaIjmMkjQbnlokJ7uinNZMgPVk8rqPT9esM&m=FxN448mDxRFQ61yKYeL1M-acBjqhTqiYErHabw9PnCE&s=6KUHcqTDcYuaZGm3aajmGawVBKVTdwgkaT-uV3NTt0g&e=>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Nothing so GREAT was achieved without enthusiasm
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 10:56 AM, Tim Gorman <
>>> tim.evdbt_at_gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > >> So, of course, I ask Oracle people about it. :)
>>> >
>>> > This thread is a good argument for expanding ORACLE-L to
>>> DATABASE-L.
>>> >
>>> > There is a vibrant technical community in SQL Server and
>>> it is long past time that these communities cross-pollinated better.
>>> >
>>> > As this thread shows, it isn't that one or the other
>>> DBMS is better, but they can be different in subtle ways which can trip up
>>> even the most experienced of us.
>>> >
>>> > And, as this thread shows, many of us are tasked with
>>> administering both DBMS packages, in addition to PostgreSQL and MySQL.
>>> >
>>> > I'm proud to cite my wife, Kellyn <http://dbakevlar.com/
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__dbakevlar.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=N2hWu5HFsaIjmMkjQbnlokJ7uinNZMgPVk8rqPT9esM&m=FxN448mDxRFQ61yKYeL1M-acBjqhTqiYErHabw9PnCE&s=tmoxewcYPAkyV5W9XsZi7ER95-Ey9lq2viH7-IVevwk&e=>>
>>> , as an example of this breed of renaissance geek, as she is currently
>>> president of both the Rocky Mountain Oracle Users Group <
>>> http://rmoug.org
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__rmoug.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=N2hWu5HFsaIjmMkjQbnlokJ7uinNZMgPVk8rqPT9esM&m=FxN448mDxRFQ61yKYeL1M-acBjqhTqiYErHabw9PnCE&s=AK33hiI2Y3OKcB49Jh5KUnLrXfM54wOC1YTRNnzZXiU&e=>>
>>> and of the Denver SQL Server users group <http://denversql.org
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__denversql.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=N2hWu5HFsaIjmMkjQbnlokJ7uinNZMgPVk8rqPT9esM&m=FxN448mDxRFQ61yKYeL1M-acBjqhTqiYErHabw9PnCE&s=EDRo5YyxavXEmZqeN9RY3-67nbpp8kH2grvlRIZc-Xk&e=>>
>>> , and she is likely soon to become the first person in the world to achieve
>>> both Oracle ACE Director (now alumnae) and Microsoft MVP recognition.
>>> >
>>> > One noticeable difference between the two communities is
>>> age. On average, Kellyn and I find attendees at SQL Server users group
>>> events to be about 10 years younger than Oracle users group events, based
>>> on unscientific eyeball observation. Also, the SQL Server users group
>>> community has a much larger percentage of women attendees and speakers
>>> (i.e. about 40% for SQL to about 20% for Oracle).
>>> >
>>> > As a result, while the ORACLE-L list has been yakking
>>> along happily here on email for the past 20 years, the SQL Server community
>>> has been largely conversing on Twitter. Both communities blog at about the
>>> same rate and volume (in my opinion), and both communities seem to use
>>> LinkedIn to the same degree (in my opinion). So, the biggest difference in
>>> online communication style seems to be email vs tweets.
>>> >
>>> > So, if we were to go through the effort of changing from
>>> ORACLE-L to DATABASE-L (leaving aliases from ORACLE-L to point to
>>> DATABASE-L so folks can still find us), we would find adoption by the SQL
>>> Server community to be slow, because they would have a struggle paying
>>> attention to, and responding to, a high-volume email list. There are
>>> undoubtedly good ways to integrate email and Twitter, and I'm sure they can
>>> be quite seamless, but the first question is: what do y'all think?
>>> >
>>> > How do you personally feel about discussing and learning
>>> about SQL Server as well as Oracle? Would it enhance your prospects?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On 3/15/18 07:23, Rich J wrote:
>>> >
>>> > On 2018/03/15 07:34, Jeff Smith wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Brent is a friend and an ex-coworker. He
>>> wanted to share the background of this customer's scenario, in case it
>>> would help you with yours.
>>> >
>>> > I let Brent know some folks were
>>> having...fun...with his take on autocommit.
>>> >
>>> > Jeff
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Heh heh heh, I can only imagine. The
>>> difference on optimistic vs pessimistic concurrency nailed it though - the
>>> default combo of optimistic & implicit transactions makes sense in Oracle,
>>> and the default of pessimistic and automatic transactions makes sense in
>>> SQL Server. It's when you change only one of those two settings that you're
>>> screwed.
>>> >
>>> > The blog post stemmed from an app that
>>> had been written by SQL Server people, and then an Oracle guy came in and
>>> made a few changes. He switched to implicit transactions without
>>> understanding that everybody was doing single-line inserts/updates all over
>>> the place in code, not bothering to set transactions. He didn't understand
>>> the impact of what he was doing. (Not an Oracle jab by any means - the guy
>>> was well-meaning but just not prepared.)
>>> >
>>> > We got called in because performance
>>> went straight into the toilet. Even worse, rollbacks were rolling back
>>> completely unrelated transactions, and nobody knew why, hahaha.
>>> >
>>> > Ah, that context adds a lot to the assertion. I
>>> still disagree that autocommit is a good practice for applications, whether
>>> it's Oracle or SQL Server, but I understand where Brent's coming from.
>>> >
>>> > And my intent wasn't to have "fun", but a sanity
>>> check for myself. IT changes constantly outside of my narrow focus, and as
>>> I've been following Brent's blog for years, that entry offers an opinion
>>> that is completely backwards of my understanding of how any modern RDBMS
>>> should work.
>>> >
>>> > So, of course, I ask Oracle people about it. :)
>>> >
>>> > Thanks all for the sanity check!
>>> > Rich
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [image: Kellyn Pot'Vin on about.me]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Kellyn Pot'Vin-Gorman*
>>>
>>> DBAKevlar Blog
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__dbakevlar.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=N2hWu5HFsaIjmMkjQbnlokJ7uinNZMgPVk8rqPT9esM&m=FxN448mDxRFQ61yKYeL1M-acBjqhTqiYErHabw9PnCE&s=hBGSpQDDeLfACY8uww52v1iFbUMrLp-Z7OBRA_X2A1o&e=>
>>>
>>> President Rocky Mtn. Oracle User Group
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.rmoug.org_&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=N2hWu5HFsaIjmMkjQbnlokJ7uinNZMgPVk8rqPT9esM&m=FxN448mDxRFQ61yKYeL1M-acBjqhTqiYErHabw9PnCE&s=8YeyiBjXCTuaAgDTPn8R2o0k-hElFtVPseuKu5WsGEc&e=>
>>>
>>> President Denver SQL Server User Group
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__denversql.org_&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=N2hWu5HFsaIjmMkjQbnlokJ7uinNZMgPVk8rqPT9esM&m=FxN448mDxRFQ61yKYeL1M-acBjqhTqiYErHabw9PnCE&s=_1uWxyL0ZZjVR2hDABU_Y_hrdNzlVhvXYBu1KCdcL2w&e=>
>>>
>>> about.me/dbakevlar
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__about.me_dbakevlar&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=N2hWu5HFsaIjmMkjQbnlokJ7uinNZMgPVk8rqPT9esM&m=FxN448mDxRFQ61yKYeL1M-acBjqhTqiYErHabw9PnCE&s=r6JoYDnPsEmn8R8fStUr0UWUStl5t1H0DmpLtDQHsJ8&e=>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

--
http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l