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Re: a modest proposal

From: Ray Stell <>
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:01:14 -0400
Message-ID: <>

On Wed, Oct 26, 2005 at 06:32:19PM +0200, Yechiel Adar wrote:
> Hello Ray
> I am replying a little late (can you say Jewish holiday) but from my
> point of view this method is wrong.
> I got a lot of points reading the discussions between the members of the
> list.
> Just posting the problem and then having a private discussion with the
> original poster will deny me a lot of interesting ideas that were
> swapped between the members.
> I learn a lot from those discussions and would like to see the whole
> rather then seeing just how a certain problem was solved.
> Many threads are evolving and moving on the new places, something that
> will disappear if we switch to the method you propose.

I believe that assumption is based on what you think the summary would look like. You look at it as a problem/solution post. This is not it. A good summary includes all the posts, with the added benefit of it being condensed. It might looke like this:

orig problem:

rman test restore


expansion of the problem and documentation

Solution list:

  1. From John, Yechiel, Mary, and Kumar: do this...
  2. Fred and Sam: they said do this, also, but with a dash of that.
  3. Jeremiah: do that and this with some whatever, but only on Wednesdays in October, because of Simchat Torah.

more details, and more expansion.

4. Oracle support said:
can't be done

5. I tried:
2 & 3 and both worked on this OS, but not that for whatever reason.


web url of test results and graphics where I out do Joe's post of a week ago on similar topic.

See the point, you don't have to hit the delete key for Yechiel, Mary, and Kumar. Plus you see what has been tested. Also, if the summary is wrong, clarifying posts are sent by the person who knows the clarification. Also, the individual solutions could be the complete post of Steve Adams or whoever, since we didn't understand it anyway. We all get raised up and challanged to present as high a quality post as possible.

Also, if you want to dig deeper into rman internals, collaberate with Kumar or whoever, and post the greatest follow-up treatise that has ever been written.

I understand you're argument. The old model does what it does and we enjoy reading rants about beer, personal attacks, and the off topic posts, they are just great fun; and list just like all the others. I think what we have here is a fear of the unknown.

What I propose is something completely different and can operate at a higher level, not one that is going to take away from you. If it does, it won't for long because the list will heal itself (booting offenders) if people do their job (if they really value the list). I've see it at work and it is really amazing. It challanges all posters to not be lazy dbas.

Thanks for you interest. Admit it, you /dev/null half of the junk anyway. I saved and backed up everything on the alpha list because it was all very valuable. Can't remember the last oracle-l post I saved.  

> Adar Yechiel
> Rechovot, Israel
> Ray Stell wrote:
> >A list, Signal-to-Noise Ratio proposal...
> >
> >The absolute best list I ever saw envolved with was the DEC alpha
> >managers list. It was operated in a completely different way, no fluff,
> >ever, period. Even more important was this, when a question was posted,
> >the community replied to the author directly, not to the list. Keep
> >reading before you go off in a huff....
> >
> >It was the job of the originator to post a meaningful summary
> >which could consist of the complete posts of the responders as needed.
> >Sometimes this was necessary since the originator didn't understand the
> >responses.
> >
> >The responders would be responsible for policing the other summary
> >authors for their work quality. If somebody was a bottom-feeder they
> >didn't hang around very long as the responders could run him off via
> >the list owner or by just not responding to those on the black list.
> >If someone disrupted the flow, it might take some follow-up posts to
> >clear things up, but it was amazing what a high level people operated at.
> >DEC developers were right there with you, really cool.
> >
> >I proposed that idea in some incarnation of this list years ago. The
> >idea was summarily blown off because the list folks wanted the freedom
> >to post anything they wanted and I'll bet they didn't trust that they
> >would get a good summary. They probably didn't get the idea that the
> >responders could rat out the bad guys and very quickly raise the community
> >standard. It does require an active moderator at least in the early
> >stages.
> >
> >True, there was less freedom to post your sarcasm. That would have to
> >be given up. You have to decide what kind of list you want. I don't
> >think you can play it both ways as it is typically done here.
> >
> >"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
> >safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
> >- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
> >
> >The reason Ben is right about oracle-l is because people operate
> >as if they don't deserve freedom. If they had done so, we wouldn't
> >need to give up the essential liberty as described in the proposal.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >On Fri, Oct 21, 2005 at 03:08:56PM -0500, Jesse, Rich wrote:
> >
> >
> >>For me as a newbie at one point in various lists, I've looked at the
> >>list's FAQ (among other places) before posting. Having been on this
> >>list for the past 4 list servers or so, I haven't bothered looking for
> >>one recently, but a quick search following the link at the bottom of
> >>every post didn't reveal one. Perhaps one could be added, if only as a
> >>pointer to or or something?
> >>
> >>Also, despite the vast differences in the list members, I do think there
> >>is much to be said for posters, both newbie and guru alike, to follow
> >>resonable guidelines. Despite some of the negative connotations to it's
> >>intended audience ("Below-the-line" for those who have gone thru
> >>accountability training), I think
> >> is an excellent
> >>resource for all posters of this and any other "professional" list.
> >>
> >>
> >>My abbreviated $.02,
> >>Rich
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From:
> >>Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 12:50 AM
> >>To: oracle-l
> >>Subject: RTFM replies
> >>
> >>
> >>I am receiving 65 messages per day, very few interesting ones among
> >>them. Most of
> >>these messages are sheer clutter, usually saying things like "here is my
> >>query, why
> >>is it slow". The net result is the fact that this list is becoming less
> >>and less
> >>[snip]
> >>
> >>--
> >>Mladen Gogala
> >>--
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> --

Ray Stell   (540) 231-4109  Tempus fugit      28^D
Received on Wed Oct 26 2005 - 17:03:46 CDT

Original text of this message