From oracle-l-bounce@freelists.org Tue Jul 13 07:35:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from air189.startdedicated.com (root@localhost) by orafaq.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i6DCZEa22981 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:35:24 -0500 X-ClientAddr: 206.53.239.180 Received: from turing.freelists.org (freelists-180.iquest.net [206.53.239.180]) by air189.startdedicated.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i6DCZ3622948 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:35:13 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turing.freelists.org (Avenir Technologies Mail Multiplex) with ESMTP id CF92072CC5D; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:15:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from turing.freelists.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (turing [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20622-72; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:15:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from turing (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turing.freelists.org (Avenir Technologies Mail Multiplex) with ESMTP id E8C1B72CC65; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:15:32 -0500 (EST) Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list oracle-l); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:14:05 -0500 (EST) X-Original-To: oracle-l@freelists.org Delivered-To: oracle-l@freelists.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turing.freelists.org (Avenir Technologies Mail Multiplex) with ESMTP id 269D572C7B0 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:14:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from turing.freelists.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (turing [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21338-26 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:14:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from imail01.thexchange.com (imail.arbinet.com [64.74.47.121]) by turing.freelists.org (Avenir Technologies Mail Multiplex) with ESMTP id 6C73E72C7A7 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:14:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from imail01.thexchange.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by imail01.thexchange.com (8.12.10/8.12.2) with ESMTP id i6DCddZB002304 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:39:39 GMT Received: from postoffice.arbinet.com (mailbox.arbinet.com [64.74.47.120]) by imail01.thexchange.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id i6DCdcrO002301 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:39:38 GMT Received: by postoffice.thexchange.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id <3CM4NFSC>; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:38:43 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Mohan, Ross" Subject: RE: ASP DBAs Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:37:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-type: text/plain To: X-Spam-Details: Hits=-4.8, Required=2, Tests=BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at freelists.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-archive-position: 4938 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: oracle-l-bounce@freelists.org Errors-To: oracle-l-bounce@freelists.org X-original-sender: RMohan@arbinet.com Precedence: normal Reply-To: oracle-l@freelists.org X-list: oracle-l X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at freelists.org Interesting perspective. Have to say I agree. So many folks in biz seem to think of the database as a "screwdriver" instead of the treasure chest at the core of their business. -----Original Message----- From: Bob Lofstrand [mailto:blofstrand@csedge.com] Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 12:04 PM To: 'oracle-l@freelists.org' Subject: RE: ASP DBAs I came from an internal IT shop to an ASP. One might think that the ASP is much more challenging and hectic. In my case it was the other way around. Dramatically! I believe it is due to standards and well defined procedures. Is everything perfect here? No. There are challenges and things that need to be worked on but as I said, it is dramatically better. Now I am not talking about having red tape for it's own sake, and we do have a bit of that, but when people know what is expected of them and know what to expect from others the whole thing move along much smoother. Imagine a football team without procedures. They call them plays. They would look like idiots and get booed off the field. I have never understood why somthing similar doesn't happend with business. I am not saying this to critize DBAs. I have been in a position of trying to 'encourge' the use of standards. It didn't happen. The developers did what ever they pleased. It was chaotic. Of course, when the problems came, the DBAs got blamed. We had no advocate in management. The result was that a team that at one point had an aggregate tenure of over 20 years, experienced a 150% turnover in a two year period. An ASP is very customer driven. If the customer wants, the customer gets. The only way to keep this from turning into utter chaos is to have well defined procedures, standards and timetables. To put it more bluntly, you have to have your sh** together at the organization level. Things don't happen just because they have to and someone important demands that it does. Things happen because they have been planned for. They happen because everyone knows where they are suppose to be and what they need to do. That happens when you have strong, intelligent leadership. The ship sails or sinks because of it's captain. -----Original Message----- From: Mohan, Ross [mailto:RMohan@arbinet.com] Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 9:57 AM To: oracle-l@freelists.org Subject: RE: ASP DBAs I am experiencing the "you should really be in here whether or not you just spend 27 hours on line or not" effect right now. The level of cluelessness is rather stunning. I do prefer the life of a consultant -- at least you get reviled routinely and predictably, and the compensation matches. As for standards, yea, I like the only point for them is to simplify/speed repeated activities. Good lord, why would one create rules otherwise (in this context, 'natch) -----Original Message----- From: Tim Gorman [mailto:tim@sagelogix.com] Sent: Sun 7/11/2004 4:18 AM To: oracle-l@freelists.org Cc: Subject: Re: ASP DBAs My opinion, for what it is worth... The creation of standards has no purpose for its own sake. Rather, the clear purpose is the wholesale automation of regularly-scheduled and routine tasks. Can't do that if each database is a "customized" configuration. Automation in turn leads to constant improvement of one's skills, as freedom from lesser tasks allows more rewarding higher-function tasks and research. Personally, I've found work as a DBA for an ASP to be very educational. Just have to dump Korn shell and learn Perl to truly achieve spiritual creaminess, I¹m told... On the other hand, the hours are excruciating and the impact on personal time is significant. If all of the routine tasks are automated, then you have to learn (and have permission!) to grab sleep and personal time when you can get it, because when things go wrong, they often do so in an extravagant way. One mistake I've made in the past was to keep a "regular" 9-5 schedule regardless of whether automation left me with nothing to do. Of course, some of that time can be filled with the "improvement" activities I was mentioning, but it is important to realize that the long hours waiting for a tape restore to spin are good for that too. Many managers are uncomfortable with DBAs not being "at work" during regular business hours. Then, when trouble hits, generally during off-hours, I end up with 40-hr days, and it's getting tougher and tougher to shake those off... Just my $0.02... on 7/10/04 8:53 PM, Mohan, Ross at RMohan@arbinet.com wrote: > Dennis, > > thanks for thoughtful and thought-provoking reply. > > I guess there is more volatility ( new apps, upgrades, migrations, new > customers, etc) and less volatility (tighter standards maintenance, > more teamwork, fewer "just > this once" databases, fixes, etc) > > I'd imagine ASP DBAs need more/better in the way of monitoring and > alerting.....and going out on a limb, i'd imagine they are *more* > likely to do SA and DBA work -- can't > back this up by > experience as I have none, but my gut tells me that. > > My concern is that life as an ASP DBA would be a hamster wheel tedium > of upgrades, patches and answering the same question for seventy > different clients...and that it would be harder to fix problems > because of the isolated/distributed nature of the clients, and the > fact that > they'd be more likely to > be using canned crApplications. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [mailto:DWILLIAMS@LIFETOUCH.COM ] > Sent: Fri 7/9/2004 8:58 PM > To: 'oracle-l@freelists.org' > Cc: > Subject: RE: ASP DBAs > > > > Ross > I'm hardly an expert, but based on my limited exposure to ASP DBAs, > I'll give my opinions and that may provoke some more expert opinion. > I think the major differences at an ASP (and this may depend on the > specific ASP) is that you may be more visible. If the ASP is hosting > specific applications then you need to be expert in how those > applications > interact with the database. Presumably handling a variety of versions > of the > > application, migrating customers between versions, etc. If the ASP is > offering the database as a product, then you will be more visible to > the customers. In theory you are supporting many databases. So > creating standards so all > > the databases look alike could be key. Or obeying the standards of a > large > team. Most of us support many databases, but my assumption is that at > an ASP > > the situation would be more volatile, bringing up new customers, > moving customers from one server to another, etc. To me the key issue > is that the customer needs to have clearly communicated what you are > and what you aren't doing. Most of the unhappiness > > results when the customer thinks you are taking care of all issues and your > understanding is that you are taking care of a limited amount. > Monitoring is a big deal at least being able to tell a good story for > potential customers. Enjoy working weird hours and weekends. > > Dennis Williams > DBA > Lifetouch, Inc. > dwilliams@lifetouch.com > I said it "looked" clear - Riddick > > > -----Original Message----- > From: oracle-l-bounce@freelists.org > [mailto:oracle-l-bounce@freelists.org > > ]On Behalf Of Mohan, Ross > Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 10:19 AM > To: oracle-l@freelists.org > Subject: RE: ASP DBAs > > > LoL...nice.... > Yes, Application Service Provider. I was trying to be hip and fit in > with the in-crowd by using acronyms and got myself into a RAC of > trouble. I guess I'll just have to get > into my yoga pose and hum "OEMMMM" until things get better. > But...on topic...i am trying to find out more about the life of a hardcore > ASP DBA. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe send email to: oracle-l-request@freelists.org put 'unsubscribe' in the subject line. -- Archives are at http://www.freelists.org/archives/oracle-l/ FAQ is at http://www.freelists.org/help/fom-serve/cache/1.html ----------------------------------------------------------------- -- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Ecartis -- -- Type: application/ms-tnef ---------------------------------------------------------------- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe send email to: oracle-l-request@freelists.org put 'unsubscribe' in the subject line. -- Archives are at http://www.freelists.org/archives/oracle-l/ FAQ is at http://www.freelists.org/help/fom-serve/cache/1.html ----------------------------------------------------------------- The information contained in this communication, including attachments, is strictly confidential and for the intended use of the addressee only; it may also contain proprietary, price sensitive, or legally privileged information. 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