Return-Path: Received: from air189.startdedicated.com (root@localhost) by orafaq.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id hBINvu331892 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:57:56 -0600 X-ClientAddr: 66.27.56.213 Received: from www2.fatcity.com (rrcs-west-66-27-56-213.biz.rr.com [66.27.56.213]) by air189.startdedicated.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id hBINvto31887 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:57:55 -0600 Received: (from root@localhost) by www2.fatcity.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id hBINqeP10123 for oracle-l@orafaq.com; Thu, 18 Dec 2003 15:52:40 -0800 Received: by fatcity.com (05-Jun-2003/v1.0g-b73/bab) via fatcity.com id 005DA55E; Thu, 18 Dec 2003 15:39:27 -0800 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 15:39:27 -0800 To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L X-Comment: Oracle RDBMS Community Forum X-Sender: Viktor Sender: ml-errors@fatcity.com Reply-To: ORACLE-L@fatcity.com Errors-To: ML-ERRORS@fatcity.com From: Viktor Subject: RE: RE: Career Advice Organization: Fat City Network Services, San Diego, California X-ListServer: v1.0g, build 73; ListGuru (c) 1996-2003 Bruce A. Bergman Precedence: bulk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1268451959-1071790593=:57007" --0-1268451959-1071790593=:57007 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --0-1268451959-1071790593=:57007 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

I agree with Ryan. Pure Oracle jobs aren't hot as they used to be. We are going through this right now. They are planning to bring in a bunch of new developers and splitting a few DBA's into dev. groups, which means we'll become more like software engineers (who can also do DBA stuff). There will be only one Prod. DBA for a zillion systems.

They're driving in the direction of bringing in more cross-trained people. They want all-aroind people who know Perl, Java, Oracle etc. The motto has been: "If you get hit by a bus, he/she can do it". The more you know, the better. Cross-training all the way. It's like that all-in-one fax/printer/copier thing.

And at the same time, the paycheck isn't as it had been either.

Viktor

ryan_oracle@cox.net wrote:

my biggest concern is the model for development has been changed. The model now is do most development with software engineers and have only a small number of database people. this means less pure oracle jobs.
>
> From: DENNIS WILLIAMS
> Date: 2003/12/18 Thu PM 02:59:26 EST
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> Subject: RE: RE: Career Advice
>
> Ryan - Excellent points. I well know the feeling of being tied to Oracle's
> future. As to Oracle pricing itself out of the market, I would like to make
> three points:
> - Pricing is one of the quickest things a vendor can change once it
> becomes convinced this is hurting it. On the other hand, I've seen software
> vendors that stopped investing in new development. They aren't in business
> anymore! because you can't quickly change that decision.
> - Oracle being perceived as high priced tends to increase our salaries. A
> company spends a lot of money on Oracle, so they want it used to good
> advantage. The salary surveys I've seen show MS SQL Server DBA with lower
> salaries on the average.
> - Has anyone seen salary survey results for MySQL or PostgreSQL? The
> database is free, so how much should a company spend on a DBA?
>
> Dennis Williams
> DBA
> Lifetouch, Inc.
> dwilliams@lifetouch.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 1:19 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> your goals should tie into the job market. you might absolutely love Pascal
> programming, but I dont recommend studying it.
>
> Right now(and I dont know how it will fluctuate), there is far, far, far
> more demand for Software Engineers who specialize in Java or .Net. Far, far,
> far, more than people who specialize in the Oracle database. I think there
> has been a fundamental shift in database development. In the past you would
> hire mostly Oracle specialized people to do most of your development. They
> would use forms or powerbuilder to do your GUIs.
>
> These days, a growing number of teams hire a large number of java or .Net
> experts and only a handful of database people. is this the best way to go? I
> dont know. I do see a trend though. How long will the trend last? I do not
> know.
>
> The biggest problem for IT workers is that we are so tied to one specific
> skillset and vendor. If Oracle prices themselves out of the market, our
> skills become far less valued. Employees today want super specialized
> skillsets. If you have them and they are hot, your set, but they wont be hot
> forever and i! ts very hard to switch since people want experience in the
> specific skillset before hiring you.
> >
> > From: "Thater, William"
> > Date: 2003/12/18 Thu PM 01:44:37 EST
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > Subject: RE: Career Advice
> >
> > DENNIS WILLIAMS scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon:
> >
> > > Saira
> > > I think you have to decide what your goal is. Then you need to
> > > decide how to best accomplish that goal. One tool that can lead you
> > > toward a goal is self-study. I have used that tool many times myself.
> > > However, with experience you learn the self-study tool has its
> > > limits. To consider self-study, consider the following questions:
> > >
> > > 1. Is this an area that I can gain significant knowledge with a
> > > reasonable amount of effort? For example, are there good books
> > > available? Is the area well-defined enough for self-study?
> > > 2. Since I'm trying to substitute self-effort for work experience, is
> > > this an area where there are few people with real work experience?
> > > 3. Are there credentials that can be earned?
> >
> > i'd like to add one more...
> > 4. is this something where getting it right will still give you a charge
> > after doing it for 10 years or more?
> >
> > [and yes DBA and programming still do for me. but i'm finding the chances
> > of being allowed to do it right are becoming few and far between.]
> >
> > --
> > Bill "Shrek" Thater ORACLE DBA
> > "I'm going to work my ticket if I can..." -- Gilwell song
> > william.thater@carrier.utc.com
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so. - Douglas Adams
> > --
> > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> > --
> > Author: Thater, William
> > INET: William.Thater@carrier.utc.com
> >
> > Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> > San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> > to: ListGuru@fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
> > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
&! gt; >
>
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> --
> Author: > INET: ryan_oracle@cox.net
>
> Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> to: ListGuru@fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> --
> Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS
> INET: DWILLIAMS@LIFETOUCH.COM
>
> Fat City Network Services -- 858-53! 8-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
> to: ListGuru@fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
>

--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
--
Author: INET: ryan_oracle@cox.net

Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
to: ListGuru@fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
(or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now --0-1268451959-1071790593=:57007-- -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Viktor INET: stant_98@yahoo.com Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services --------------------------------------------------------------------- To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: ListGuru@fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).