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Home -> Community -> Mailing Lists -> Oracle-L -> RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
Just a personal comment, we run both Microsoft SQL databases and Oracle databases about 60 servers in each. The organisation is project driven for that read small independent kingdoms. The impression I have is that the Windows 2000 operating system is fairly stable, especially when run on Compaq Proliant servers. As an example of stability I have an NT 4 server running SQL server 6.5 that had been running continuously for more than a year, normally 80 concurrent users from a pool of 500-600 including data entry and big ad-hoc queries against databases that were are as large as 15 gigs. Some of the Unix boxes we have unfortunately do not even have a virus scanner available. They seem to depend on "we are such a small market share no one will ever target us". Oracle is also reducing the number of operating systems it supports in the newer releases, some of ours will never go beyond 8.1.7.
We have used Microsoft Premier support and we have found them easy to contact and very professional. I find supporting multiple versions of Oracle on multiple versions and flavours of UNIX to be a little complex sometimes. I'd prefer not to talk about the ease with which we can get CDs from Oracle or the features of Metalink that no longer work because of the number of CSIs we have. Have you noticed how many people get a stable configuration running in Oracle then don't like to upgrade? How many actually move to the next version before the terminal release?
If you have the chance to play with Microsoft SQL server have a look at the DTS part of it. Another interesting feature is the Index tuning wizard, very effect. The query optimiser which takes your SQL query and works out the optimal way to run is a feature I am impressed with. The other is internal memory management. If you aren't using something why allocate fixed memory to it. I'd like to see these features incorporated in Oracle.
Microsoft has three modes for the transaction log. Simple, just write enough to be able to back out this transaction, same as the redo log file except it can extend if required, Full normal transaction log file, and Bulk load which is the normal transaction log file but with reduced more optimised logging when you use a bulk insert command. Note that because simple requires you to delete the transaction from the transaction log there is not the same performance gain as in Oracle when you don't copy the transactions from the redo log file to the archive log file and for those of us who regularly see redo log file errors in Oracle SQL Server seems to generate fewer errors.
Generally speaking the problem today is not hardware faults but rather software faults or finger problems. These tend to require point in time restores. You first backup the transaction log then restore the database from a full backup reapplying the transactions from the log file usually to a point in time. I recommend for the majority of our work backing up the transaction file each evening and a full backup once a week. Backing up the transaction log every 30 minutes seems a bit excessive. Note because the transaction log must normally be present to start the database I recommend putting the transaction log on some sort of reliable RAID. The database isn't quite so important you can always restore it but the transaction log must be protected to ensure no loss of data. Also when you back up the transaction log the default behaviour is to truncate it at the same time.
Performance is pretty much dependant on the disk subsystem these days we just hook every thing up to a fairly large SAN and rely on that. I think HPUX is moving to the 64 bit Intel chip as is Microsoft Windows and SQL Server. To be honest how many databases really push the limits of a computer these days? If you want to go chasing performance have a look at the perfmon in Windows, totally integrated with SQL Server and the operating system.
You can actually layout the database files yourself if you want to in SQL Server but with a SAN I usually recommend having two lungs one with the database on it and the other with the transaction log. The SAN usually keeps track of the traffic moving highly active databases to the faster disk dives and the ones that aren't used very often to the slower drives. It also spreads out the database over multiple spindles to optimise performance.
Cost, well I wanted to have a couple of servers for an application that had to be up, i.e. two servers. The Proliant cost was about $6,000 per server plus SAN. The SUN cost was $28,000 plus SAN. If you have access to the Gartner reports they have done some comparative costs by the way. We have a number of projects who have moved to Oracle on Windows and been very pleased with the results from a cost point of view.
Existing applications will remain with us for quite a long time which means Oracle will be with us for quite a time to come. The new work is tending more and more to be Microsoft .NET / SQL server based. This in turn creates problems because a year ago it was easy to find a recruit internally who wanted to work as an Oracle DBA these days it is becoming much more difficult. We still do new Oracle development and those projects usually go in very well. Probably because we have consolidated our experienced Oracle developers into one or two areas that have a large commitment to Oracle and their experience helps the projects.
Cheerio John
-----Original Message-----
Sent: March 3, 2003 9:49 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Thanks guys. That's exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for, and for the same reasons you mentioned.
Rich
Rich Jesse System/Database Administrator rich.jesse_at_qtiworld.com Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 3:35 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
The txn log is just a separate database file(s) and they can autogrow in increments (MB or %). The growth can be unrestricted or restricted to a fixed MB size. Though command line TSQL can create the files with space allocated in units (KB/MB/GB/TB). The wizard isn't quite as flexible. There can also be multiple transaction log files though I believe the virtual log files (logs within logs) extended through the additional files as needed as opposed to the circular log jumping that happens in Oracle.
I think it is important as Oracle DBA's we have at least a conceptual knowledge of what SQL Server can and cannot do. So when management says they
want to switch to SQL Server you have something to back up your opinions. I ran into this where the management was MSS/Win2K focused to the max I had to
battle against them and the MS marketing guy. I won but it was a lot of work
to prove my case. Actually, used application porting time/costs/metrics as DBMS/OS capabilities was a much harder sell.
>From: STEVE OLLIG <sollig_at_lifetouch.com>
>Reply-To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com
>To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com>
>Subject: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
>Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:49:29 -0800
>
>no problem Rich. the transaction log mirroring can be done by the
>DBMS. and SQueal Server has disk devices much like a tablespace that
>can be placed on different disks and such. transaction logs are kind
>of like tables in that they must be placed in a device. so yes, these
>mirrored transaction logs can be kept apart and "safe".
>
>Rachel's comment is also accurate however. if things go way wrong
>(usually happens to a novice dba) the transaction log can get stuffed
>so full that there's no way to "archive" it and you end up "truncating"
>it. users tend not to like it when they can't do DML ;-) anyway, once
>a transaction log has been truncated there is no transaction recovery
>until the next database backup completes. and yes - the database
>backup utility does hot backups.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jesse, Rich [SMTP:Rich.Jesse_at_qtiworld.com]
> > Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 1:47 PM
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > Subject: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
> >
> > Steve, when you say "mirror" are the writes duplicated from SQueaL
>Server
> > or
> > hardware? My DBA instructor had distributed some e-mails from a
> > student who left the mirroring of redos up to hardware. One
> > controller firmware
>patch
> > is all it took to corrupt both copies of the redos.
> >
> > So, if the mirror is done at the hardware level, it wouldn't be the
> > same as Oracle. Also, if the TX logs are in the DB, how separated
> > can the
>mirrors
> > be?
> >
> > Hope this isn't getting too off-topic. I just want to make sure
> > that
>I'm
> > not burning any bridges by refusing to let SQueaL Server get any
> > more
>DBs
> > here...
> >
> > Thx!
> > Rich
> > > on-the-fly)? In other words, if it fills up, what happens? Does
> > > it
>get
> > > overwritten or does the DB continue in an unrecoverable mode?
> > >
> > > Trying to understand more of this wonderful Enterprise product...
> > >
> > > Rich
> > --
> > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
> > --
> > Author: Jesse, Rich
> > INET: Rich.Jesse_at_qtiworld.com
> >
> > Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
> > San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -
> > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
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>--
>Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
>--
>Author: STEVE OLLIG
> INET: sollig_at_lifetouch.com
>
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>San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services
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-- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: david davis INET: ddoralist_at_hotmail.com Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services --------------------------------------------------------------------- To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: Rich.Jesse_at_qtiworld.com Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services --------------------------------------------------------------------- To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: John.Whelan_at_statcan.ca Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services --------------------------------------------------------------------- To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).Received on Mon Mar 03 2003 - 12:54:46 CST
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