RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again

Here is another one that puts cold water on the Certification argument, We very rarely have our customers call asking for a consultant with Oracle Certification. They are usually more interested in the person having a Degree.

Cheers

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"Karniotis, Stephen" <Stephen_Karniotis_at_compuware.com>
Sent by: root_at_fatcity.com
26-06-2002 04:17 AM
Please respond to ORACLE-L

 
        To:     Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com>
        cc: 
        Fax to: 
        Subject:        RE: the ora certified masters cert, yet again


Rachel has really baiting me on this one, as she is well aware of my
position on certifications, especially Oracle's.  I watched some of this
thread start and laughed. 

Vendor-sponsored certifications are no more valuable to the marketplace 
than
the software they claim is 100% bug free.  This is especially true when 
the
vendor "pushes" the certification out to the market for next to nothing 
and
then complains that the industry sees no value in it because SOOOOOO many
people have it.  Who's to blame for that.  Why do you think Microsoft
reduced the number of organizations that offer MCS* certifications?  There
are TOOOO MANY.  Our company offered MCS* certifications, including a
complete training program, as required and it brought NO VALUE. 

Look at companies like Novell, etc.  Originally, Novel's certifications,
CNA, CNE, & CNAE, were offered at a high cost and only the few and proud 
had
obtained it.  The original certification exams, CSP, CCP, etc. that were
offered by third-party institutes have also lost their value as anyone 
with
a book and time can pass them.  It's too bad because certifications DID 
mean
something in the 1980s and early 1990s.

Oracle is crying in its own spoiled milk on this one.  They caused the
problem and now they are trying to fix it by ramming a new program down 
our
throats.  Think about it folks.  You have to pay an additional $ 2000 for
what?  The only reason people will take this ridiculous path is to achieve 
a
higher level in the Oracle Partner Program.  No More. No less. 

If you really think that having an OCM or OCP or other certification is
going to make the difference in you getting a job, you have REAL problems.
As far as Rachel substituting books and presentations for certifications, 
I
agree with her.  As a personal friend of hers ( I hope still after this 
long
email), I also do not have my certification because my experience shows:
25+ presentations around the world, recognized industry expert, and 17+
years doing the job. 

OK.  I'm off the soap box.  Get off the certification box now before it
collapses and Oracle builds another one.  You know:  If Oracle would
concentrate on building better quality software with the time spent on 
this
stupid certification program, all of us would be better off!

Thank You

Stephen P. Karniotis
Product Architect
Compuware Corporation
Direct:          (248) 865-4350
Mobile:          (248) 408-2918
Email:           Stephen.Karniotis_at_Compuware.com
Web:             www.compuware.com

 -----Original Message-----
Sent:            Tuesday, June 25, 2002 12:19 PM
To:              Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

Rachel,

So, you substitute books and presentations in place of
the OCP? This sounds like we are in agreement in
principle...

<;)

jack



--- Rachel Carmichael <wisernet100_at_yahoo.com> wrote:


> okay, I realize this won't work for everyone on this

> list but...

> 

> I hand them my resume. the third page of which is

> FILLED with lists of

> presentations I have given, awards I have gotten for

> presentations I

> have given and books I have written

> 

> if they STILL want me to have OCP on my resume after

> that, I don't want

> to work there anyway

> 

> --- Jack Silvey <jack_silvey_at_yahoo.com> wrote:

> > The question is, are you going to allow your

> > clearminded moral stance and total disdain for a

> > thinly veiled DBA tax to interfere with your

> pursuit

> > of filth lucre? *I* ain't!

> > 

> > ;)

> > 

> > It is just another hoop to jump through so that a

> > hring manager can say "that is an impressive hoop

> you

> > jumped through" and you can respond "yes, and I

> can

> > jump through some hoops for you too" and allow

> them to

> > say "here is an outrageous sum of money to work on

> our

> > computers." 

> > 

> > I love this job.

> > 

> > jack silvey

> > ocp 7.3, 8.0, 8i, 9i

> > 

> > 

> > --- Don Granaman <granaman_at_cox.net> wrote:

> > > They aren't - unless it exceeds a non-trivial

> > > percentage (6%? 7%? more?  I

> > > can't remember now...) of their income and is

> > > "required" (?).

> > > 

> > > This new requirement for OCP is just another in

> a

> > > long line of

> > > propaganda/baloney from Oracle in its

> never-ending

> > > attempts to suck up every

> > > buck it possibly can.  [Oracle likes $$$$$.  HR

> > > likes mindless checklist

> > > items.  It is a match made in heaven.]  I

> thought

> > > that the "need practically

> > > any two ILT classes, no matter how irrelevant"

> 9i

> > > OCM was going to be the

> > > limit of extending the the greedy grab for OCP

> bucks

> > > - for 9i at least.

> > > This isn't about certification anymore (as if it

> > > ever was), its about

> > > revenue.

> > > 

> > > Since this "new requirement" (for the moment at

> > > least) doesn't apply to

> > > upgrade from an 8i certification, does anyone

> know

> > > if there is (or soon will

> > > be) a new constraint/surprise/ambush limiting

> that

> > > to 8i OCP obtained prior

> > > to, oh say, June 15, 2002?  September 2002?

> > > 

> > > Don Granaman

> > > [OraSaurus - with more disdain than ever for the

> > > evil vampire Larry's OCP

> > > DBA tax]

> > > 

> > > ----- Original Message -----

> > > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L"

> > > <ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com>

> > > Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 12:23 AM

> > > 

> > > 

> > > > I thought employees were not allowed to write

> > > things off as business

> > > > expenses...

> > > >

> > > > Confusedly yours,

> > > > Patrice Boivin

> > > > Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA)

> > > >

> > > > -----Original Message-----

> > > > Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:13 PM

> > > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

> > > > Subject: RE: the ora certified masters cert,

> yet

> > > again

> > > >

> > > > Are you trying to promote it?

> > > >

> > > > -----Original Message-----

> > > > Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:50 PM

> > > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I am seriously considering pursuing one, since

> it

> > > can

> > > > be sold to hiring managers as a sign of

> > > professional

> > > > competence.

> > > >

> > > > Look at it from a cost/benefit ratio

> standpoint.

> > > Will

> > > > someone with this cerifification make $2000

> more

> > > over

> > > > her professional life than she would without?

> > > >

> > > > So it takes a round trip ticket and three days

> of

> > > > vacation. Get the company to pay for it or

> write

> > > it

> > > > off as a business expense.

> > > >

> > > > Good investment, easy money, instant

> credibility

> > > to

> > > > many hiring managers.

> > > >

> > > > jack silvey

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > On 19 Jun 2002 at 4:38, Ron Rogers wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Date sent:      Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:38:18

> -0800

> > > > > To:             Multiple recipients of list

> > > > > ORACLE-L <ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com>

> > > > >

> > > > > > It seems that our list has made mention in

> > > this

> > > > > report from

> > > > > > Searchdatabase.com. And Oracle is trying

> to

> > > > > justify the $2000 expence.

> > > > > > If I read this correct the $2000 is for 9i

> > > OCP.

> > > > > > =======

> > > > > > LEAD STORY

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ORACLE FUELS CERTIFICATION CONTROVERSY |

> > > > > SearchDatabase

> > > > > > Oracle has a new requirement for its

> potential

> > > > > certified

> > > > > > professionals, and the price tag is about

> > > $2,000.

> > > > > Many DBAs aren't

> > > > > > happy about the new policy but Oracle says

> the

> > > > > class makes their

> > > > > > certification more valuable than ever.

> Read

> > > the

> > > > > details of the new

> > > > > > mandate, and what DBAs and industry

> experts

> > > have

> > > > > to say about it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > For the full details, click:

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>
http://www.searchdatabase.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid13_gci833782,00.ht


> > > > ml

> > > > >

> > > > > ...

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > --

> > > > > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ:

> > > > > http://www.orafaq.com

> > > > > --

> > > > > Author: Eric D. Pierce

> > > > >   INET: eric_d_pierce_at_pacbell.net

> > > > >

> > > > > Fat City Network Services    -- (858)

> 538-5051 

> 

=== message truncated ===


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