Well, I know what you mean.
But, I'll take my chances, because as I said before, MetaLink Note:139327.1
didn't convince me at all that "OCOPY" is any better than regular "NT Copy"
command.
Besides, I am keeping two generations of backup (the latest and the one
prior to that), so if anything goes wrong with the latest backup image of
the db file, I can always recover, using older backup and archived RedoLogs
from both backups.
Also, our customers wouldn't wait for Oracle support , and having two
generations of backups, I can resolve potential issues much faster than ...
Igor Neyman, OCP DBA
ineyman_at_perceptron.com
- Original Message -----
To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com>
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 12:30 PM
> Igor,
>
> That sounds good, but what is Oracle Support going to say when you call
them
> for support on a database recovery and you mention that you used NT COPY??
> Your hosed, if there attitude is you should have used OCOPY so we can't
help
> you.
>
> Chris
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 11:26 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> Ok, I guess, I owe some explanation here, since I've got a lot of spanking
> (replies, some rather sarcastic) regarding this issue.
> My original note comes from my "real life" experience, so I'm still
standing
> behind it.
> Sorry, it'll be kind of long, but if you are really interested...
>
> Couple years ago, when we were preparing first release of our product, I
> read of course about "NT Copy" versus "Oracle Ocopy".
> Still I decided to test it, because not always I trust what I read, and I
> like to get proof myself.
> Testing of online ("hot") backup/recovery scenario showed, that using "NT
> Copy" command in backup scripts is perfectly fine, when creating backup
set
> of files on the disk. And there is no problem restoring from this backup.
> Now this "disk backup" set of files could be saved on tape, using NTBACKUP
> (that's the one, that really can not copy file, if it's opened by some
other
> program. But that's not the case with prepared in advance "disk backup").
> "NT Copy" has no problems copying files opened already by Oracle, and
backup
> is consistent, as long of course as I am using "alter tablespace <name>
> begin backup" before copying relevant files and "alter tablespace <name>
end
> backup" after finishing files copy.
> So, those scripts (using "NT Copy") were put into production, and now have
> been used for more than two years on more than hundred installations/sites
> (the number keeps growing).
> From time to time, our field engineers are bringing back to me sets of
> online (can not use "cold" backup - our systems should run 24*7, I'm not
> saying they are, but we are trying to minimize downtime) backed up files
(db
> files and archived RedoLog files), and I recover them with no problem (we
> need this, to test how the upgrade to next release of our product will run
> against "real" customers data).
>
> Now, about MetaLink Note:139327.1
> It says:
> <quote>
> Ocopy opens the file using CreateFile() with the FILE_SHARE_READ and
> FILE_SHARE_WRITE flags. This allows writing to continue while we take the
> backup. Inconsistencies in the backup are repaired by applying archived
> redo during recovery. The 'copy' command from NT doesn't use these flags
> since it wants to prevent writes to the file while the copy is taking
> place.
> </quote>
>
> I don't think, it's very accurate, and here is why:
> When during online backup I run "NT copy" against db file, the file is
> already opened by Oracle (at moment, when I "open" the database).
> So, even if "NT copy" opens file without FILE_SHARE_READ and
> FILE_SHARE_WRITE flags, all it means is that "Subsequent open operations
on
> the object will fail" (quote from NT docs). I want you to notice, it says
> "Subsequent open operations" not "Subsequent write/read operations". So,
> all it does is prohibiting some other program/process from "opening" the
> file. But Oracle, as I mentioned, has this file already opened, and it is
> perfectly capable of reading/writing this file.
> Of course, the image of the saved file will be "fuzzy", and that's why
when
> recovering from online backup we are applying archived RedoLog files
(which
> getting written much more intensely during online backup).
>
> As for Peter McLarty note, that he "never knew that NT copy could manage
> keeping the CSN number in sync",
> well it ("NT Copy") does not have to (neither does "Oracle Ocopy") keep
CSN
> number in sync.
> Oracle updates file header with checkpoint SCN, when we issue "alter
> tablespace <name> begin backup". Then until "alter tablespace <name> end
> backup", file header will cease updating. And SCN, written in the
beginning
> provides the info, which archived RedoLog files should be used for
recovery.
>
> Now, please correct me, if I'm wrong.
>
> Igor Neyman, OCP DBA
> ineyman_at_perceptron.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> To: <ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com>
> Cc: <ineyman_at_perceptron.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 6:47 PM
>
>
> > > Wrong. NT 'COPY' has no problems copying 'opened' oracle db files.
> > > I'm using it in 'hot backup' scripts on many dozens systems, and it
> > works
> > > fine.
> >
> > Igor, you sure about that?
> >
> > There are backup packages (such as Backup Exec ) that use their
> > own file open copy program to avoid using copy.exe.
> >
> > Have you restored any of these backups made with copy?
> >
> > Jared
> >
> > Note:139327.1
> > Subject:
> > Differences between Windows NT COPY and Oracle
> > OCOPY When Doing Backups
> >
> > Creation Date: 03-APR-2001
> > Last Revision Date: 04-DEC-2001
> >
> > PURPOSE
> > A comparison of the differences between the Windows NT "copy"
commnad,
> > and
> > the Oracle "ocopy" command. Which should be used during an online
> > backup?
> >
> > SCOPE & APPLICATION
> > DBAs with databases on the Windows NT platform.
> >
> > The Differences between Windows NT COPY and Oracle OCOPY When Doing
> > Backups:
> >
> >
>
> >
> > When doing an online backup, should you use the Windows NT COPY
command,
> > or the
> > Oracle OCOPY command?
> >
> > While doing online backups you should use OCOPY, or Oracle7 EBU, or
> > Oracle8
> > (and later) RMAN. With the OCOPY command you could copy to a backup
> > directory
> > on the hard drive but cannot use OCOPY to copy a file to tape. The
other
> > option
> > if you do not want to use ocopy to perform your backup as this does
> > require a
> > lot of disk space is EBU/RMAN that comes with Oracle. Depending on your
> > Oracle
> > version, the distribution includes a utility called EBU (Oracle7) or
RMAN
> >
> > (Oracle8 and later) that can be used for online recovery as well. You
> > will need
> > to use a media management product to move the data from RMAN to tape.
> > Legato
> > Storage Manager is provided however there are other products that are
> > supported
> > to be used with this tool.
> >
> > To backup you will need to use the utility delivered by Oracle, the
ocopy
> >
> > command. Utilities like the NT commands copy, xcopy CANNOT be used to
> > back up.
> > The Windows NT feature to be aware of is that NT Backup does not allow
> > files in
> > use to be copied, so you must use the OCOPY utility that Oracle
provides
> > to
> > copy the open database files to another disk location. Since OCOPY
cannot
> > copy
> > files directly to tape, you will then need to use NT Backup or copy or
a
> > similar utility to copy the files to tape, as required.
> >
> > OCOPY allows writing to continue while the backup is running. The NT
COPY
> > is a
> > closed copy and the files may be marked either as "fuzzy" or "corrupt."
> > Ocopy
> > opens the file using CreateFile() with the FILE_SHARE_READ and
> > FILE_SHARE_WRITE
> > flags. This allows writing to continue while we take the backup.
> > Inconsistencies in the backup are repaired by applying archived redo
> > during
> > recovery. The 'copy' command from NT doesn't use these flags since it
> > wants to
> > prevent writes to the file while the copy is taking place.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Igor Neyman" <ineyman_at_perceptron.com>
> > Sent by: root_at_fatcity.com
> > 01/24/02 01:05 PM
> > Please respond to ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> <ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com>
> > cc:
> > Subject: Re: Backup Strategy
> >
> >
> > I took a quick look at this paper, and found right away, that it's not
> > very
> > accurate, at least in one issue.
> > i.e., it states :
> > < quote>
> > The Windows NT command COPY can be used to create a cold backup of a
> > database. It cannot be used to make a
> > hot backup. Attempting to perform a hot backup with COPY will usually
> > result
> > in an error message being generated
> > as the COPY command fails - during a hot backup the database is running
> > and
> > thus the database files are locked by
> > the Oracle database process, and COPY cannot work on a file that is so
> > locked.
> > < /quote>
> >
> > Wrong. NT 'COPY' has no problems copying 'opened' oracle db files.
> > I'm using it in 'hot backup' scripts on many dozens systems, and it
works
> > fine.
> >
> > Don't know about the accuracy of the rest of the paper, didn't have time
> > to
> > read it all.
> >
> > Igor Neyman, OCP DBA
> > ineyman_at_perceptron.com
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 7:35 AM
> >
> >
> > > Hi All,
> > >
> > > http://www.geocities.com/tbcox23/
> > >
> > > Go here and get the paper.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Venkat
> > > --
> > >
> > > On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 03:25:17
> > > Bunyamin K. Karadeniz wrote:
> > > >If possible , I want one copy too.
> > > >Bunyamin
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com>
> > > >Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 12:30 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Can you send me one (NT backup strategy)
> > > >>
> > > >> Regards,
> > > >> Ramesh D Papnoi
> > > >> Oracle DBA @ Chemtex Global Engineers Pvt. Ltd., Mumbai, India
> > > >> (BrainBench & Brainbuzz Certified Oracle 8/8i DBA & Developer)
> > > >> http://www22.Brinkster.com/rpapnoi
> > > >>
> > > >> ---------- Original Text ----------
> > > >>
> > > >> To: internet["Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L"
> > > ><ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com>]
> > > >>
> > > >> Please send me one. (NT) Thank,
> > > >>
> > > >> grace wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > can u also send me a copy on backup strategy on nt.
> > > >> > thanks
> > > >> >
> > > >> > ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com>
> > > >> > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 3:25 PM
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > Hello Hamid
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > I would like to have this paper as well.
> > > >> > > We are now revising our Backup strategy.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Yechiel Adar, Mehish Computer Services
> > > >> > > adary_at_mehish.co.il
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > >> > > > From: Mohan, Ross [SMTP:MohanR_at_STARS-SMI.com]
> > > >> > > > Sent: Tue, January 22, 2002 6:35 PM
> > > >> > > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > > >> > > > Subject: RE: Backup Strategy
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Hamid,
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Would you be willing to forward a copy of
> > > >> > > > this paper?
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Thanks,
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Ross Mohan
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > >> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 12:27 PM
> > > >> > > > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Hi List,
> > > >> > > > I have a white paper for Backup Strategy on Microsoft NT but
I
> > am
> > > >> > looking
> > > >> > > > for Backup Strategy for Oracle8i on Solaris, If anybody have
> > any
> > doc
> > > >or
> > > >> > > > link
> > > >> > > > I realy appreciate.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Hamid Alavi
> > > >> > > > Office 818 737-0526
> > > >> > > > Cell 818 402-1987
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > The information contained in this message and any attachments
> > is
> > > >> > intended
> > > >> > > > only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is
> > > >addressed,
> > > >> > and
> > > >> > > > may contain information that is PRIVILEGED, CONFIDENTIAL and
> > exempt
> > > >from
> > > >> > > > disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this
> > message
> > > >in
> > > >> > > > error,
> > > >> > > > you are prohibited from copying, distributing, or using the
> > > >information.
> > > >> > > > Please contact the sender immediately by return e-mail and
> > delete
> > > >the
> > > >> > > > original message from your system.
> > > >> > > > --
> > > >> > > > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
> > > >> > > > --
> > > >> > > > Author: Hamid Alavi
> > > >> > > > INET: hamid.alavi_at_quovadx.com
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858)
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> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
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> > > Author: C.S.Venkata Subramanian
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> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
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--
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
--
Author: Igor Neyman
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Received on Fri Jan 25 2002 - 13:33:17 CST
