RE: Becoming a DBA questions

I for the most part have stayed out of this whole OCP thing cause I too think its fairly worthless to determine if someone has the skills necessary to perform the job of DBA. And that is despite the fact I have gone ahead and gotten my Oracle8 DBA and then upgrading to 8i after.

That, however, does not make it worthless in getting an interview. I believe
that we have already pretty much gone over the whole fact that you have to get by HR before getting an interview and you do need to have something to
get you that edge. Sometimes all it takes is the OCP. Are managers wrong to let it influence them? It depends. If they are saying, that person has an OCP, they must be good, then yes, they are being influenced incorrectly. However, if they are saying hey, that person took some time to get an OCP. Lets bring them in for an interview and see if they know what they are talking
about then I say its a good thing. And so far I have seem more of the later then the former, at least within the company I work for.

To me it just shows that I am keeping up to date on my database of choice. I back it up with my experience. And if that gets me a job over someone with similar experience but thought it was not worth their time to get the OCP then sucks to be you. Its not predominate on my resume but bet your ass that its there.

Granted, having my company pay for the tests make it an easier decision to go get them and I am not so sure I would be so willing to do it if the company
was not willing. If the company is paying, get the damn chip off your shoulder
and go take the tests. If you are good as you say you are and the tests as easy as you say they are then what the hell is the big deal. I have yet to take longer then 15 minutes to do the test (including the survey). Including the drive and stuff surely you can all spare an hour and increase the cash inflow at Oracle....

This email was not directed specifically at you Joe, just replying to the whole OCP thing (especially since you seem to have the same thought process in
this case). OK, back to the wine...

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 6:10 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

Edward, i beg to differ, the ONLY thing that OCP is good for is a discriminator between to evenly qualified/interviewed candidates.

As someone who does hiring of oracle DBAs and who's been one for 10 years and is OCP, I'm skeptical of those who make a big deal out of being OCP, since that tends to make me believe that they DONT have the experience to back it up.

Joe
8 and 8i OCP(but rarely makes it known).

Edward Lock wrote:

> As someone with 7 years in the HR (Compensation) field, and now in the
> IT/ERP field working on my Oracle DBA OCP, I can speak with some
> knowledge and experience.
>
>
>
> Using the term "Entry Level" on a resume is self-defeating. Most
> technical resumes are still screened by by the HR departments first,
> before the hiring managers even see them. A good recruiter will be able
> to identify whether you have the experience or not. If not, they will
> defer a judgment call to the hiring IT manager anyway. That doesn't
> mean that you should lie on your resume or deceive anyone. But don't
> shoot yourself in the foot before you even get your foot in the door.
>
>
>
> Annual salaries for DBAs are, indeed, coming down. If you can get ahold
> of a good IT salary survey, make note of not only the average salary,
> but the median salary. The median salary is what is commonly used to
> benchmark a position--not the average salary. If a formal salary
> structure exists at a company, they will normally use the median as the
> compa-ratio for the particular paygrade or step. Use common sense, do
> your homework, and ask what you're worth; but always leave room for
> compromise.
>
>
>
> MS Access IS a relational database. However it is a file-server
> application, not a client-server database, and was not designed to
> handle large transactional systems over a large network. It is designed
> for small to medium sized, non mission-critical business environments.
> Properly designed, MS Access can serve many purposes, but you will never
> find Payroll or Financial systems using MS Access as a db platform or
> front-end. MS Access is a great environment for learning databases and
> SQL, but it is only a starting point.
>
>
>
> Concerning Oracle training--use everything that you can afford. If it's
> a career-change, then consider formal Oracle University instructor-led
> training classes. If you're already in the field, then self-study may
> work. It takes tremendous self-discipline to go the self-study route
> with books and CDS or online training.
>
>
>
> People who say that the OCP is valueless to the market have never
> tested. I say to them--why not test?
>
>
>
> Edward Lock
>
> Sr. Programmer Analyst
>
> PeopleSoft Project Office, University of Houston System
>
> ejlock_at_central.uh.edu <mailto:ejlock_at_central.uh.edu>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Karniotis, Stephen
>
> *Sent:* Monday, December 31, 2001 12:08 PM
>
> *To:* Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
> *Subject:* RE: Becoming a DBA questions
>
>
>
> Good afternoon all:
>
> I have been holding back on replying to this email because I really
> wanted to see what some of the other answers were, especially ones
> related
> to OCP. Rachel C. will understand as my answers will be very direct.
>
> 1. What is the average salary range for an entry-level DBA position?
Or
> a position for someone who is just starting out as a DBA?
> >>> As a person that has worked as an Oracle DBA for over 13
> years, the entry-level salary had changed quite dramatically. From
the
> mid-to late 1990s when starting DBAs could make upwards of 100K to
> "REALITY"
> when entry-level DBAs should be making no more than 70K. Some may
> disagree,
> however, I don't think paying high salaries is warranted just
> because the
> person is a DBA. If they don't have the experience, they don't
> deserve the
> high monetary return. I would say that 50K is probably on the high
> end for
> entry-level DBAs. The days of high salaries, similarly the high
> consulting
> rates, are gone and organizations are now back to reality. I
> actually had
> someone whom has been out of work for over 6 months refuse a salary
> of 65K
> as a DBA because he felt it was demeaning for him to accept it.
>
> 2. In a job resume, should I request an entry-level position or would
> that set me up for no phone calls?
> >>> I disagree with everyone else regarding not using
> "entry-level" on your resume. If you have no experience and you are
> looking
> to work in a team environment, then using this wording is
> acceptable. You
> will have to pick the job postings carefully so you don't send
> resumes to
> organizations that require lots of experience. If you can control
that,
> then remove "entry-level" and use "junior" instead.
>
> 3. What are some steps I should take to becoming a DBA w/ the
> background that I have (ie. generated databases w/ MS Access)?
> >>> Well, MS Access, although people consider this a relational
> database, is not. It is a file system that looks like a relational
> database. Generating databases in MS Access is nothing like creating
> database environments in Oracle. You will honestly need to start from
> scratch. The data modeling and application database creating may be
> similar
> if you followed the normalization rules and generally accepted
> guidelines.
> I would highly recommend using either Oracle's online learning
network,
> locating a college/university where they teach Oracle. These do
> exist as I
> have taught several of these classes in Michigan. I would highly
> recommend
> contacting the Los Angeles Oracle User's Group for the location of
> courses
> that are taught.
> If you are a devoted person when it comes to online training, then
> Oracle online learning is a good start. There are other
> organizations that
> offer Oracle online training, however, I don't remember their names.
> Understand that online training only provides you the bare basics.
> It is
> not going to give you the exposure and experience needed to be a
> true DBA.
> a) Recommended training/education in Los Angeles area?
> b) Where do you recommend I study & is online training valuable?
>
> 4. If I could learn Oracle software on my own through Independent
study
> (books & reference sites), could this be sufficient enough to go
> about to
> get a job?
> >>> OK. This is where I disagree with everyone. The OCP is
valueless
> to the market. It looks good on the resume because almost no
> organization
> really understands how it is obtained. As one of the authors for
> the first
> independent Oracle certification, we designed the certification exam
> so that
> inexperienced Oracle DBAs COULD NOT pass it. It required
> Experience!!! The
> Oracle OCP only requires you to take some training, read some books,
and
> then take the exam. We as experienced DBAs has proven this time
> after time
> by giving the exam to people that have never been DBAs in their
> careers and
> have only read some basic Oracle Concepts material. There are a lot
> of OCP
> DBAs that still don't understand how to get stuff out of Oracle's Data
> Dictionary or, for that matter, what is a data dictionary. I see no
> value
> in the OCP except as a training mechanism. When high school
> students can
> pass the exam without any experience in Oracle, that should tell you
the
> value of the exam itself.
>
> If you can learn portions of the Oracle software on your own, Great!
> It will be impossible to learn all of Oracle on your own as the
> software is
> vast in features and requires different configurations that you may
> not have
> available to you. In teams of acquiring a job from learning the
> software,
> you may be able to get a job working in a team of Oracle DBAs.
> However, I
> will be the first one here to say that I would not hire you as a
> stand alone
> DBA with just that type of experience. For small shops, maybe, but
for
> enterprises, no way.
>
> a) Is the OCP certification necessary?
> b) If I took this independent study route instead of formal training
> from like a vocational school, would the steps to getting a job (or
> even my
> OCP certification) be the same? Or would it be more difficult without
> formal training?
> Independent study mechanisms are typically not structured in
> learning capabilities. You need a structured model to properly
> learn the
> ridiculous things in Oracle, especially with Oracle9i. I would
> start with
> some basic online training and then move to a semi-formal study
program.
> From there, either vocational, self-study or a more formal class
> would be
> beneficial.
> 5. What are some valuable books and resources to aid in my training?
> >>> Rachel's DBA 101 book would be an excellent choice. Some of the
> books by O'Riely and Oracle Press would also help you. Many people
have
> given excellent suggestions here. There are so many titles that I
> would not
> beg to know them offhand.
>
>
> 6. How much does Oracle9i cost & would it be worth it to get since i
> want to learn? Are there evaluation copies out there that I can get
my
> hands on?
> >>> You can download Oracle9i from www.oracle.com. In terms of
> cost, it
> varies depending on the number of CPUs and hardware chosen. You can
> also
> pay for an Oracle Technology Network membership and receive the CDs
from
> Oracle. Understand that Oracle is not a small software product. The
> requirements on your hardware are quite large, so make sure you have
> enough
> bandwidth in terms of CPU and memory before investing in it.
> 7. What are the basic introductory courses/resources/training I could
> do to learn or get started in DBA training?
> 8. Basically, please list the steps you took to become a DBA (starting
> with education/training to job entry) and how you sould suggest I
> should go
> about starting to learn the fundamentals and then more in depth?
>
> 7 & 8 are too generic. I would advise contacting your own DBA staff
and
> asking them this question. I always recommend becoming an Oracle
> developer
> before becoming a DBA. DBAs that have never developed Oracle-based
> software
> will never understand the issues related to query optimization,
> performance
> management, etc. as well as if they had attempted to create an
> Oracle-centric application. In many cases, I have seen Oracle DBAs
> with no
> development experience really screw up an application environment.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
>
> Thank You
>
> Stephen P. Karniotis
> Technical Alliance Manager
> Compuware Corporation
> Direct: (248) 865-4350
> Mobile: (248) 408-2918
> Email: Stephen.Karniotis_at_Compuware.com
> Web: www.compuware.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 11:15 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> Subject: Re: Becoming a DBA questions
>
> 1. Depends on the company/part of the country and the economy.
> 2. State your experience with other databases. Once you get Oracle up
> and running at home, add that so they know you have installed it (IMHO
> installing on Linux is more impressive as it is very close to unix,
but
> doing it under windows is better than nothing.) Don't say "looking for
> entry-level Oracle dba job" in your mission statement. Say something
> like "looking for the opportunity to move my proven database design
and
> administration skills to a new level with Oracle" or something to that
> extent.
> 3. If you are good at self-study, Oracle has online learning that
> appears pretty reasonable ($99/month or something like that). But get
> yourself an Oracle installation to practice on first.
> 4. Quite possible to get a job with self-study and training. Passing
> your OCP tests will help you get that first job. After that it is
nice
> to put on your biography when you submit papers to present at the
> conferences and user groups.
> 6. I'm not in the office today, but I'm sure someone will correct me
on
> the title, but the two books I think are great are
> a. Oracle 8i dba from Oracle Press. I think that is the one that has a
> great example of real-life paper to database that explains things very
> well.
> b. DBA 101 by Rachel Carmichael (and others). I haven't had the chance
> to read it yet, but I've got a friend who is an aspiring dba so I've
> looked at it and he really loves it. And since I'm a big fan of
> Rachel's work, I have to recommend it.
> 8. Well, I have been working with databases for many years. But my
> first Oracle job was an accident. I was hired for other skills that I
> had and the day I started my new manager said "the Oracle DBA is
> leaving. You've got a lot of database experience on your resume. Want
to
> be our Oracle DBA?" The rest is history. My advice to you is to get
> Oracle installed and decide on a project that you can use and
maintain.
> I built a contact manager using an Access front-end. I kept learning
> new ways to improve the design and adding new features. Besides
coming
> in very handy for job searches, it gave me something to discuss when
> networking and someone would hear that I worked with databases and ask
> what I had worked on recently. I would also recommend looking up a
> local user group (start at www.ioug.org and click on the User Group
> link). Attend and make friends. These will be your peers and if you're
> lucky, you may find someone that will become your mentor. They may
not
> be in a position to hire you, but they (we) are generally connected to
> the pulse of the hiring market and know when someone is looking to
> expand or hire a replacement. They can also help you learn new things
> and correct any misconceptions you have. At the social portion of the
> event (most user groups have conversation time) find someone who has
> been a dba for a number of years and ask them if you can talk to them.
> Explain what your understanding of something is and then pay attention
> as they either correct you or add to your knowledge. Before you know
> it, you will be sitting in an interview and the interviewer will ask
you
> to explain how to use pctfree and you will know from your
conversations
> and testing.
>
> Good luck.
>
>
> Stephen Andert
> Scottsdale, Arizona
>
> >>> LBanzali_at_aol.com 12/31 2:00 AM >>>
> > Questions for a Database Administrator:
> 1. What is the average salary range for an entry-level DBA position?
Or
> a
> position for someone who is just starting out as a DBA?
>
> 2. In a job resume, should I request an entry-level position or would
> that
> set me up for no phone calls?
>
> 3. What are some steps I should take to becoming a DBA w/ the
> background
> that I have (ie. generated databases w/ MS Access)?
>
> a) Recommended training/education in Los Angeles area?
>
> b) Where do you recommend I study & is online training valuable?
>
> 4. If I could learn Oracle software on my own through Independent
> study
> (books & reference sites), could this be sufficient enough to go about
> to get
> a job?
>
> a) Is the OCP certification necessary?
>
> b) If I took this independent study route instead of formal training
> from
> like a vocational school, would the steps to getting a job (or even my
> OCP
> certification) be the same? Or would it be more difficult without
> formal
> training?
>
> 5. What are some valuable books and resources to aid in my training?
>
>
> 6. How much does Oracle9i cost & would it be worth it to get since i
> want to
> learn? Are there evaluation copies out there that I can get my hands
> on?
>
> 7. What are the basic introductory courses/resources/training I could
> do to
> learn or get started in DBA training?
>
> 8. Basically, please list the steps you took to become a DBA
(starting
> with
> education/training to job entry) and how you sould suggest I should go
> about
> starting to learn the fundamentals and then more in depth?
>
> Thank you!! I really appreciate your help!!
>
> Please, write to me @
>
> LBanzali_at_aol.com
>
> thanks!!
> smiles & happy new year 2002!!!!
>
>
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
> --
> Author: Stephen Andert
> INET: StephenAndert_at_firsthealth.com
>
> Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
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> Author: Karniotis, Stephen
> INET: Stephen_Karniotis_at_compuware.com
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--
Joe Testa, Oracle DBA
Want to have a good time with a bunch of geeks? Check out:
http://www.geekcruises.com/standard_interface/future_cruises.html
I'm presenting, when registering drop my name :)






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