Re: Becoming a DBA questions

Edward, i beg to differ, the ONLY thing that OCP is good for is a discriminator between to evenly qualified/interviewed candidates.

As someone who does hiring of oracle DBAs and who's been one for 10 years and is OCP, I'm skeptical of those who make a big deal out of being OCP, since that tends to make me believe that they DONT have the experience to back it up.

Joe
8 and 8i OCP(but rarely makes it known).

Edward Lock wrote:

> As someone with 7 years in the HR (Compensation) field, and now in the
> IT/ERP field working on my Oracle DBA OCP, I can speak with some
> knowledge and experience.
>
>
>
> Using the term "Entry Level" on a resume is self-defeating. Most
> technical resumes are still screened by by the HR departments first,
> before the hiring managers even see them. A good recruiter will be able
> to identify whether you have the experience or not. If not, they will
> defer a judgment call to the hiring IT manager anyway. That doesn't
> mean that you should lie on your resume or deceive anyone. But don't
> shoot yourself in the foot before you even get your foot in the door.
>
>
>
> Annual salaries for DBAs are, indeed, coming down. If you can get ahold
> of a good IT salary survey, make note of not only the average salary,
> but the median salary. The median salary is what is commonly used to
> benchmark a position--not the average salary. If a formal salary
> structure exists at a company, they will normally use the median as the
> compa-ratio for the particular paygrade or step. Use common sense, do
> your homework, and ask what you're worth; but always leave room for
> compromise.
>
>
>
> MS Access IS a relational database. However it is a file-server
> application, not a client-server database, and was not designed to
> handle large transactional systems over a large network. It is designed
> for small to medium sized, non mission-critical business environments.
> Properly designed, MS Access can serve many purposes, but you will never
> find Payroll or Financial systems using MS Access as a db platform or
> front-end. MS Access is a great environment for learning databases and
> SQL, but it is only a starting point.
>
>
>
> Concerning Oracle training--use everything that you can afford. If it's
> a career-change, then consider formal Oracle University instructor-led
> training classes. If you're already in the field, then self-study may
> work. It takes tremendous self-discipline to go the self-study route
> with books and CDS or online training.
>
>
>
> People who say that the OCP is valueless to the market have never
> tested. I say to them--why not test?
>
>
>
> Edward Lock
>
> Sr. Programmer Analyst
>
> PeopleSoft Project Office, University of Houston System
>
> ejlock_at_central.uh.edu <mailto:ejlock_at_central.uh.edu>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Karniotis, Stephen
>
> *Sent:* Monday, December 31, 2001 12:08 PM
>
> *To:* Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
> *Subject:* RE: Becoming a DBA questions
>
>
>
> Good afternoon all:
>
> I have been holding back on replying to this email because I really
> wanted to see what some of the other answers were, especially ones
> related
> to OCP. Rachel C. will understand as my answers will be very direct.
>
> 1. What is the average salary range for an entry-level DBA position? Or
> a position for someone who is just starting out as a DBA?
> >>> As a person that has worked as an Oracle DBA for over 13
> years, the entry-level salary had changed quite dramatically. From the
> mid-to late 1990s when starting DBAs could make upwards of 100K to
> "REALITY"
> when entry-level DBAs should be making no more than 70K. Some may
> disagree,
> however, I don't think paying high salaries is warranted just
> because the
> person is a DBA. If they don't have the experience, they don't
> deserve the
> high monetary return. I would say that 50K is probably on the high
> end for
> entry-level DBAs. The days of high salaries, similarly the high
> consulting
> rates, are gone and organizations are now back to reality. I
> actually had
> someone whom has been out of work for over 6 months refuse a salary
> of 65K
> as a DBA because he felt it was demeaning for him to accept it.
>
> 2. In a job resume, should I request an entry-level position or would
> that set me up for no phone calls?
> >>> I disagree with everyone else regarding not using
> "entry-level" on your resume. If you have no experience and you are
> looking
> to work in a team environment, then using this wording is
> acceptable. You
> will have to pick the job postings carefully so you don't send
> resumes to
> organizations that require lots of experience. If you can control that,
> then remove "entry-level" and use "junior" instead.
>
> 3. What are some steps I should take to becoming a DBA w/ the
> background that I have (ie. generated databases w/ MS Access)?
> >>> Well, MS Access, although people consider this a relational
> database, is not. It is a file system that looks like a relational
> database. Generating databases in MS Access is nothing like creating
> database environments in Oracle. You will honestly need to start from
> scratch. The data modeling and application database creating may be
> similar
> if you followed the normalization rules and generally accepted
> guidelines.
> I would highly recommend using either Oracle's online learning network,
> locating a college/university where they teach Oracle. These do
> exist as I
> have taught several of these classes in Michigan. I would highly
> recommend
> contacting the Los Angeles Oracle User's Group for the location of
> courses
> that are taught.
> If you are a devoted person when it comes to online training, then
> Oracle online learning is a good start. There are other
> organizations that
> offer Oracle online training, however, I don't remember their names.
> Understand that online training only provides you the bare basics.
> It is
> not going to give you the exposure and experience needed to be a
> true DBA.
> a) Recommended training/education in Los Angeles area?
> b) Where do you recommend I study & is online training valuable?
>
> 4. If I could learn Oracle software on my own through Independent study
> (books & reference sites), could this be sufficient enough to go
> about to
> get a job?
> >>> OK. This is where I disagree with everyone. The OCP is valueless
> to the market. It looks good on the resume because almost no
> organization
> really understands how it is obtained. As one of the authors for
> the first
> independent Oracle certification, we designed the certification exam
> so that
> inexperienced Oracle DBAs COULD NOT pass it. It required
> Experience!!! The
> Oracle OCP only requires you to take some training, read some books, and
> then take the exam. We as experienced DBAs has proven this time
> after time
> by giving the exam to people that have never been DBAs in their
> careers and
> have only read some basic Oracle Concepts material. There are a lot
> of OCP
> DBAs that still don't understand how to get stuff out of Oracle's Data
> Dictionary or, for that matter, what is a data dictionary. I see no
> value
> in the OCP except as a training mechanism. When high school
> students can
> pass the exam without any experience in Oracle, that should tell you the
> value of the exam itself.
>
> If you can learn portions of the Oracle software on your own, Great!
> It will be impossible to learn all of Oracle on your own as the
> software is
> vast in features and requires different configurations that you may
> not have
> available to you. In teams of acquiring a job from learning the
> software,
> you may be able to get a job working in a team of Oracle DBAs.
> However, I
> will be the first one here to say that I would not hire you as a
> stand alone
> DBA with just that type of experience. For small shops, maybe, but for
> enterprises, no way.
>
> a) Is the OCP certification necessary?
> b) If I took this independent study route instead of formal training
> from like a vocational school, would the steps to getting a job (or
> even my
> OCP certification) be the same? Or would it be more difficult without
> formal training?
> Independent study mechanisms are typically not structured in
> learning capabilities. You need a structured model to properly
> learn the
> ridiculous things in Oracle, especially with Oracle9i. I would
> start with
> some basic online training and then move to a semi-formal study program.
> From there, either vocational, self-study or a more formal class
> would be
> beneficial.
> 5. What are some valuable books and resources to aid in my training?
> >>> Rachel's DBA 101 book would be an excellent choice. Some of the
> books by O'Riely and Oracle Press would also help you. Many people have
> given excellent suggestions here. There are so many titles that I
> would not
> beg to know them offhand.
>
>
> 6. How much does Oracle9i cost & would it be worth it to get since i
> want to learn? Are there evaluation copies out there that I can get my
> hands on?
> >>> You can download Oracle9i from www.oracle.com. In terms of
> cost, it
> varies depending on the number of CPUs and hardware chosen. You can
> also
> pay for an Oracle Technology Network membership and receive the CDs from
> Oracle. Understand that Oracle is not a small software product. The
> requirements on your hardware are quite large, so make sure you have
> enough
> bandwidth in terms of CPU and memory before investing in it.
> 7. What are the basic introductory courses/resources/training I could
> do to learn or get started in DBA training?
> 8. Basically, please list the steps you took to become a DBA (starting
> with education/training to job entry) and how you sould suggest I
> should go
> about starting to learn the fundamentals and then more in depth?
>
> 7 & 8 are too generic. I would advise contacting your own DBA staff and
> asking them this question. I always recommend becoming an Oracle
> developer
> before becoming a DBA. DBAs that have never developed Oracle-based
> software
> will never understand the issues related to query optimization,
> performance
> management, etc. as well as if they had attempted to create an
> Oracle-centric application. In many cases, I have seen Oracle DBAs
> with no
> development experience really screw up an application environment.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
>
> Thank You
>
> Stephen P. Karniotis
> Technical Alliance Manager
> Compuware Corporation
> Direct: (248) 865-4350
> Mobile: (248) 408-2918
> Email: Stephen.Karniotis_at_Compuware.com
> Web: www.compuware.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 11:15 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> Subject: Re: Becoming a DBA questions
>
> 1. Depends on the company/part of the country and the economy.
> 2. State your experience with other databases. Once you get Oracle up
> and running at home, add that so they know you have installed it (IMHO
> installing on Linux is more impressive as it is very close to unix, but
> doing it under windows is better than nothing.) Don't say "looking for
> entry-level Oracle dba job" in your mission statement. Say something
> like "looking for the opportunity to move my proven database design and
> administration skills to a new level with Oracle" or something to that
> extent.
> 3. If you are good at self-study, Oracle has online learning that
> appears pretty reasonable ($99/month or something like that). But get
> yourself an Oracle installation to practice on first.
> 4. Quite possible to get a job with self-study and training. Passing
> your OCP tests will help you get that first job. After that it is nice
> to put on your biography when you submit papers to present at the
> conferences and user groups.
> 6. I'm not in the office today, but I'm sure someone will correct me on
> the title, but the two books I think are great are
> a. Oracle 8i dba from Oracle Press. I think that is the one that has a
> great example of real-life paper to database that explains things very
> well.
> b. DBA 101 by Rachel Carmichael (and others). I haven't had the chance
> to read it yet, but I've got a friend who is an aspiring dba so I've
> looked at it and he really loves it. And since I'm a big fan of
> Rachel's work, I have to recommend it.
> 8. Well, I have been working with databases for many years. But my
> first Oracle job was an accident. I was hired for other skills that I
> had and the day I started my new manager said "the Oracle DBA is
> leaving. You've got a lot of database experience on your resume. Want to
> be our Oracle DBA?" The rest is history. My advice to you is to get
> Oracle installed and decide on a project that you can use and maintain.
> I built a contact manager using an Access front-end. I kept learning
> new ways to improve the design and adding new features. Besides coming
> in very handy for job searches, it gave me something to discuss when
> networking and someone would hear that I worked with databases and ask
> what I had worked on recently. I would also recommend looking up a
> local user group (start at www.ioug.org and click on the User Group
> link). Attend and make friends. These will be your peers and if you're
> lucky, you may find someone that will become your mentor. They may not
> be in a position to hire you, but they (we) are generally connected to
> the pulse of the hiring market and know when someone is looking to
> expand or hire a replacement. They can also help you learn new things
> and correct any misconceptions you have. At the social portion of the
> event (most user groups have conversation time) find someone who has
> been a dba for a number of years and ask them if you can talk to them.
> Explain what your understanding of something is and then pay attention
> as they either correct you or add to your knowledge. Before you know
> it, you will be sitting in an interview and the interviewer will ask you
> to explain how to use pctfree and you will know from your conversations
> and testing.
>
> Good luck.
>
>
> Stephen Andert
> Scottsdale, Arizona
>
> >>> LBanzali_at_aol.com 12/31 2:00 AM >>>
> > Questions for a Database Administrator:
> 1. What is the average salary range for an entry-level DBA position? Or
> a
> position for someone who is just starting out as a DBA?
>
> 2. In a job resume, should I request an entry-level position or would
> that
> set me up for no phone calls?
>
> 3. What are some steps I should take to becoming a DBA w/ the
> background
> that I have (ie. generated databases w/ MS Access)?
>
> a) Recommended training/education in Los Angeles area?
>
> b) Where do you recommend I study & is online training valuable?
>
> 4. If I could learn Oracle software on my own through Independent
> study
> (books & reference sites), could this be sufficient enough to go about
> to get
> a job?
>
> a) Is the OCP certification necessary?
>
> b) If I took this independent study route instead of formal training
> from
> like a vocational school, would the steps to getting a job (or even my
> OCP
> certification) be the same? Or would it be more difficult without
> formal
> training?
>
> 5. What are some valuable books and resources to aid in my training?
>
>
> 6. How much does Oracle9i cost & would it be worth it to get since i
> want to
> learn? Are there evaluation copies out there that I can get my hands
> on?
>
> 7. What are the basic introductory courses/resources/training I could
> do to
> learn or get started in DBA training?
>
> 8. Basically, please list the steps you took to become a DBA (starting
> with
> education/training to job entry) and how you sould suggest I should go
> about
> starting to learn the fundamentals and then more in depth?
>
> Thank you!! I really appreciate your help!!
>
> Please, write to me @
>
> LBanzali_at_aol.com
>
> thanks!!
> smiles & happy new year 2002!!!!
>
>
> --
> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
> --
> Author: Stephen Andert
> INET: StephenAndert_at_firsthealth.com
>
> Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
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> --
> Author: Karniotis, Stephen
> INET: Stephen_Karniotis_at_compuware.com
>
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> San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
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-- 
Joe Testa, Oracle DBA
Want to have a good time with a bunch of geeks? Check out:
http://www.geekcruises.com/standard_interface/future_cruises.html
I'm presenting, when registering drop my name :)






-- 
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-- 
Author: Joe Testa
  INET: teci_at_the-testas.net

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