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RE: OT -- training

From: Post, Ethan <epost_at_kcc.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 13:06:22 -0700
Message-ID: <F001.0036BFA1.20010815124816@fatcity.com>

Well your exactly right about the .coms and many other businesses. There must be some more legal wrangling elsewhere in the tax code or some existing legal precedents that would suggest that you can infact not make a profit and still be considered a biz, even outside the lines of the ref below. - E

>-----Original Message-----
>From: tday6_at_csc.com [mailto:tday6_at_csc.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 1:29 PM
>To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>Subject: RE: OT -- training
>
>
>You're absolutely correct. I had a momentary brain-burp and
>applied what I
>knew of tax-exempt to not-for-profit.
>
>From the IRS's FAQ at
>http://www.irs.gov/prod/bus_info/eo/eo-faqs.html#11
>
>"Non-profit and not-for-profit are state law concepts. Most states have
>laws whereby an entity can be incorporated as a non-profit or
>not-for-profit organization. However, the mere fact that an entity is
>organized as a non-profit or not-for-profit organization does
>not indicate
>that it is exempt from federal income tax."
>
>So the IRS (Federal law) doesn't recognize non-profit or
>not-for-profit.
>
>However, the discussion was really about whether you had to
>make a profit
>to be a legitimate business.
>
>Check http://www.irs.gov/plain/forms_pubs/pubs/p5350104.htm
>Quote:
>
>"Presumption of Profit
>An activity is presumed carried on for profit if it produced a
>profit in at
>least 3 of the last 5 tax years, including the current year. Activities
>that consist primarily of breeding, training, showing, or
>racing horses are
>presumed carried on for profit if they produced a profit in at
>least 2 of
>the last 7 tax years, including the current year. You have a
>profit when
>the gross income from an activity is more than the deductions for it.
>
>"If a taxpayer dies before the end of the 5-year (or 7-year)
>period, the
>period ends on the date of the taxpayer's death. If your business or
>investment activity passes this 3- (or 2-) years-of-profit
>test, presume it
>is carried on for profit. This means it will not come under
>these limits.
>You can take all your business deductions from the activity,
>even for the
>years that you have a loss. You can rely on this presumption
>in every case,
>unless the IRS shows it is not valid.
>"Using the presumption later. If you are starting an activity
>and do not
>have 3 (or 2) years showing a profit, you may want to take advantage of
>this presumption later, after you have the 5 (or 7) years of experience
>allowed by the test. You can choose to do this by filing Form
>5213. Filing
>this form postpones any determination that your activity is
>not carried on
>for profit until 5 (or 7) years have passed since you started
>the activity.
>
>"The benefit gained by making this choice is that the IRS will not
>immediately question whether your activity is engaged in for profit.
>Accordingly, it will not restrict your deductions. Rather, you
>will gain
>time to earn a profit in 3 (or 2) out of the first 5 (or 7)
>years you carry
>on the activity. If you show 3 (or 2) years of profit at the
>end of this
>period, your deductions are not limited under these rules. If
>you do not
>have 3 (or 2) years of profit, the limit can be applied
>retroactively to
>any year in the 5-year (or 7-year) period with a loss.
>
>"Filing Form 5213 automatically extends the period of
>limitations on any
>year in the 5-year (or 7-year) period to 2 years after the due
>date of the
>return for the last year of the period. The period is extended only for
>deductions of the activity and any related deductions that might be
>affected."
>
>They've changed the rules since I last was interested. I'm pretty sure
>that it used to be just 1 year out of the last 4 or 5. Now
>it's 3 years
>out of the last 5. I wonder how many dot coms could meet that test --
>assuming that they stay in business for 5 years?
>
>
>
>
>
> "Mercadante,
>
> Thomas F" To: Multiple
>recipients of list ORACLE-L
> <NDATFM_at_labor.st
><ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com>
> ate.ny.us> cc:
>
> Sent by: Subject: RE:
>OT -- training
> root_at_fatcity.com
>
>
>
>
>
> 08/15/2001 02:46
>
> PM
>
> Please respond
>
> to ORACLE-L
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>The IRS is not picky about not-for-profits making a profit -
>they just get
>taxed for it. I was a treasurer for a NFP, and we always made
>a (modest)
>profit. We just paid like normal taxpayers.
>
>They also taxed you for income that was "outside" your stated
>reason for
>being.
>
>tday6 said:
>"2. You can never make a profit."
>
>
>Tom Mercadante
>Oracle Certified Professional
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 10:16 AM
>To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
>Yes. It does. But, as someone pointed out earlier, as an
>individual it's
>only partially deductible. If you're a business then it is an
>expense that
>can be offset against income (and thus is 100% deductible).
>If you're not
>already a DBA (or at least in an IT field) then it's probably not
>deductible.
>
>As always, check with a real tax lawyer. Me? I just slept at
>a Holiday
>Inn last night.
>
>Regarding registering as a non-profit -- 2 points.
>
>1. The IRS requires that you have some socially beneficial activity as
>your only mission (education, religion, etc.).
>
>2. You can never make a profit.
>
>They're pretty picky about this. (LOL)
>
>
>
>
>
> lhoska_at_calibr
>
> esys.com To: Multiple recipients of
>list
>ORACLE-L
> Sent by: <ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com>
>
> root_at_fatcity. cc:
>
> com Subject: RE: OT
>-- training
>
>
>
>
>
> 08/14/2001
>
> 05:41 PM
>
> Please
>
> respond to
>
> ORACLE-L
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Speaking about progressing in your current field wouldn't technical
>training
>of dba qualify for a tax break under the same category as
>training for FAA
>ground instructor? Otherwise, your FAA ground instructor
>registered as a
>private business (and we're back to the beginning of our discussion).
>Doesn't surprise me neither does it make me jealous. There are so many
>different career decisions you can make. I like being a dba..
>Btw, I am pretty sure you can write off your technical book
>fees even as an
>individual..
>-----Original Message-----
>Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 4:54 PM
>To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
>Appearances to the contrary, Canada is a separate country with
>their own
>tax laws.
>
>However, the tax dodge that you mention is common here too.
>
>Here's a really good one -- become a Certified FAA Ground
>Instructor. You
>teach people how to pass the FAA ground exam. Since it's not life
>threatening, it's relatively simple to get this certificate.
>Then get a
>student or two. After that you can buy an airplane. The
>airplane, the gas
>to fly it, the maintenance and hangering of the airplane, the cost of
>getting the experience necessary to become a Certified Flight
>Instructor
>(CFI), books, aircraft simulator software, landing fees, even
>the cost of
>overnight lodging in some cases, instructors' fees (in short,
>a whole ton
>of things that make flying a hobby for the rich) become tax deductable
>because they are helping you progress in your field as an
>instructor. The
>IRS does not allow you to deduct training that qualifies you for a new
>field but it does allow you to deduct training that allows you
>to progress
>in your current field. Because of the FAA requirements for
>becoming a CFI
>almost anything having to do with flying will count as "training".
>
>
>
>
>
> "Boivin, Patrice
>
> J" To: Multiple
>recipients of
>list ORACLE-L
> <BoivinP_at_mar.dfo- <ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com>
>
> mpo.gc.ca> cc:
>
> Sent by: Subject: RE: OT --
>training
>
> root_at_fatcity.com
>
>
>
>
>
> 08/14/2001 04:17
>
> PM
>
> Please respond to
>
> ORACLE-L
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>I know in Canada that some high-paid executives have "farms"
>in rural areas
>(ahem, cottages really) where they grow forage, seed, or raise
>a couple of
>sheep, rabbits, a few pigs, some chickens, or one cow. All for tax
>deductions of course. It helps if the farm is near a lake.
>
>Another good one is "horse farm". There is a particularly big one in
>Ontario that specializes in horse racing... and never makes a
>profit. Ha
>ha
>ha ha ha ha...
>
>This is my opinion, of course. But I saw many of these when I used to
>enter
>farm tax records for Statistics Canada years ago.
>
>Regards,
>Patrice Boivin
>Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tday6_at_csc.com [SMTP:tday6_at_csc.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 3:44 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> Subject: RE: OT -- training
>
> I guess that we'll let the IRS sort this one out. Your friend is
>probably
> right and I was probably overly emphatic when I said that you MUST
>show a
> profit sometime. But I would rather not leave it up to the IRS to
>decide
> whether it is a business or a hobby.
>
>
>
>
> "Post, Ethan"
>
> <epost_at_kcc.co To: Multiple
>recipients
>of list ORACLE-L
> m> <ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com>
>
> Sent by: cc:
>
> root_at_fatcity. Subject: RE: OT --
>training
> com
>
>
>
>
>
> 08/14/2001
>
> 01:17 PM
>
> Please
>
> respond to
>
> ORACLE-L
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Actually I talked to a friend who is pretty knowlegable about this
>stuff
> and
> he says that what it will really come down to is intent.
>The IRS is
>not
> going to call your business a hobby if it is in fact
>unquestionably
>a
> business, even if it has lost money for a period of years. - E
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: tday6_at_csc.com [mailto:tday6_at_csc.com]
> >Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 7:41 AM
> >To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >Subject: RE: OT -- training
> >
> >
> >Check with your tax advisor again or get a new tax advisor. I
>don't
> >remember the exact details but you MUST show some tax-able profit
>for a
> >certain number of years out of every so many years (eg, 1 year
> >out of the
> >last 4 - I'm not sure that those are the right numbers)
>or the IRS
>will
> >decide that your "business" is just a "hobby" and force you to
> >go back and
> >give up all your business deductions. It doesn't have to be a
> >huge profit,
> >but it does have to be a positive number.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > lhoska_at_calibr
> >
> > esys.com To: Multiple
> >recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > Sent by:
> ><ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com>
> > root_at_fatcity. cc:
> >
> > com Subject: RE: OT
> >-- training
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 08/13/2001
> >
> > 06:05 PM
> >
> > Please
> >
> > respond to
> >
> > ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >I've heard from my tax adviser your business doesn't have to show
>any
> >profit
> >for number of years after opening. I suspect even then it is
> >not required.
> >What if you having hard time making profit? It doesn't mean
> >you have to
> >close your business...I assume in that case you can also register
>as a
> >non-profit organization. Are tax breaks better for
> >non-profits? I don't
> >know..
> >Also, if you don't already know.. some training companies
> >(Learning Tree
> >International per example) won't even register you for class
> >if you're an
> >individual. You have to be a corporation.
> >Lyuda
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >Sent: Monday, August 13, 2001 3:42 PM
> >To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> >You could create a web site that features some technical
> >materials and use
> >it to advertise your services if you are willing to
>moonlight on a
>few
> >jobs,
> >just enough to turn a profit within a couple years. Then I
> >would presume
> >you would have no trouble writing the training off as a
>legitimate
>biz
> >expense.
> >
> >- Ethan
> >- http://www.geocities.com/epost1
> >
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Ron Rogers [mailto:RROGERS_at_galottery.org]
> >>Sent: Monday, August 13, 2001 11:42 AM
> >>To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >>Subject: Re: OT -- training
> >>
> >>
> >>Patrice,
> >> There is "resistance" to any training that I feel is
> >>necessary to further my knowledge and/or enhance my
> >>understanding of the Oracle processes. Even though I have
> >>money in the budget for such items I have to submit a business
> >>case defining the gains to the company and after completing
> >>the course with a passing grade the company will reimburse me
> >>the expenses for the course only. I also have to sign a waver
> >>that I will pay the company back the full cost of the course
> >>if I leave their employment before 365 days. Needless to say I
> >>pay for everything myself and hope to write it off on taxes if
> >>they ever get the bill signed into law.
> >>ROR mª¿ªm
> >>
> >>>>> BoivinP_at_mar.dfo-mpo.gc.ca 08/13/01 11:46AM >>>
> >>Just out of curiosity, how many days / weeks of real
>training did
>your
> >>employer provide you with in the last couple of years?
> >>
> >>"real" is in quotes, I don't mean the little 1 - 3 day
> >>seminars given by
> >>CareerTrack and other "training" companies, or
> >>management-related stuff like
> >>little MBA-flavoured certificates from universities.
> >>
> >>Oh, and did the amount of training you received match what you
> >>were told
> >>during your job interview?
> >>
> >>Regards,
> >>Patrice Boivin
> >>Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA)
> >>
> >>Systems Admin & Operations | Admin. et Exploit. des systèmes
> >>Technology Services | Services technologiques
> >>Informatics Branch | Direction de l'informatique
> >>Maritimes Region, DFO | Région des Maritimes, MPO
> >>
> >>E-Mail: boivinp_at_mar.dfo-mpo.gc.ca
><mailto:boivinp_at_mar.dfo-mpo.gc.ca>
> >>
> >>--
> >>Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
> >>--
> >>Author: Boivin, Patrice J
> >> INET: BoivinP_at_mar.dfo-mpo.gc.ca
> >>
> >>Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858)
>538-5051
> >>San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing
>Lists
>
>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >> INET: RROGERS_at_galottery.org
> >>
> >>Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858)
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> >Author: Post, Ethan
> > INET: epost_at_kcc.com
> >
> >Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX:
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> Author: Post, Ethan
> INET: epost_at_kcc.com
>
> Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX:
>(858) 538-5051
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>Author: Boivin, Patrice J
> INET: BoivinP_at_mar.dfo-mpo.gc.ca
>
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>Author: Mercadante, Thomas F
> INET: NDATFM_at_labor.state.ny.us
>
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Received on Wed Aug 15 2001 - 15:06:22 CDT

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