RE: RE: OT -- MS makes a statement about open-source software

:-) Feeling snowed?

|| -----Original Message-----
|| From: dgoulet_at_vicr.com [mailto:dgoulet_at_vicr.com]
|| Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 2:41 PM
|| To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
|| Subject: Re:RE: OT -- MS makes a statement about open-source software
||
||
|| OK, who's got the shovel? It's getting deep in here again!! :-)
||
|| ____________________Reply Separator____________________
|| Author: "Eric D. Pierce" <PierceED_at_csus.edu>
|| Date: 5/7/2001 9:56 AM
||
|| dude,
||
|| semi-intuitive/deductive?
||
|| re: ".net"
||
|| what I've seen is a lot of the usual eternally poorly, or
|| partly, thought out MS-hate, mostly secondary/derivative
|| material on email lists, along with some good criticism
|| (good as in: based on either sophisticated technical, or
|| political grounds).
||
|| on the other hand, at this campus, the desktop support R&D
|| guy, who is more or less agnostic (occasionally slight
|| pro-MS leanings) says that .net is expectde to take care of
|| some major vexing problems with client platform rollouts and
|| maintenance.
||
|| And you saw the forward from the folks at our local user
|| group who appear to have done some careful preliminary
|| examination of the two strategies.
||
|| As an "independent", I see massive problems on the MS side.
||
|| BUT, as in virtually all the "conflict" based clashes between
|| people that have become emotionaly invested in "one side" or
|| another of an argument about values, beliefs and "aesthetics",
|| excesses and rhetorical distortions will be in evidence on
|| both "sides".
||
|| It is easy for people in the "purist" camp of the tech
|| community to trash MS' greed and monopolistic excesses (and
|| the underlying value/belief system). It is much harder for
|| some "purists" to maintain a sophisticated, balanced "good
|| faith" approach to dialoging with people with other
|| perspectives, and to engage in healthy self criticism.
||
|| The tendency for people to become obsessive about
|| "advocating" their own (or their own groups') perspective
|| and therefore loose the ability to tolerate, and appreciate
|| other perspectives (especially to the extent of becoming
|| reactionary) is called "instrumentalization" by social
|| theorists.
||
|| I've paid more attention to the cultural mapping of these
|| issues in relation to 1) science/religion dialogue (e.g.,
|| the Kansas School Board controversy about teaching of
|| evolutionary theory), the broad outlines of "liberal vs.
|| conservative" conflict over social engineering policies
|| (esp. public education & welfare state), and issues in
|| international relations (e.g., Giddens', of the London
|| School of Economics, "constructivist" perspective).
||
|| ---excerpt---
||
|| http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0745622674
||
|| Book Description
||
|| The idea of finding a "third way" in politics has been widely
|| discussed - not only in the UK, but in the US, Continental Europe
|| and Latin America. But what is the third way? Supporters of the
|| notion haven't been able to agree, and critics deny the
|| possibility altogether. Anthony Giddens shows that developing a
|| third way is not only a possibility but a necessity in modern
|| politics. The third way represents the renewal of social democracy
|| in a world where the views of the old left have become obsolete,
|| while those of the new right are inadequate and contradictory. A
|| new social democratic agenda is emerging that is integrated,
|| robust and wide-ranging. It is an agenda that can rekindle
|| political idealism.
||
|| The author's previous works, especially "Beyond Left and Right"
|| (Polity Press 1994), have influenced debates about the social
|| democracy in many countries across the world. Frequently referred
|| to in the UK as Tony Blair's guru, Giddens has made a strong
|| impact on the evolution of New Labour. The author or editor of
|| over thirty books, he is currently the Director of the London
|| School of Economics and Political Science.
|| ...
||
|| ---end---
||
|| In terms of transcending (not invalidating) the limitations
|| of older value/belief systems, one useful tool is called
|| "standpoint epistemology", which assumes that "truth" (or
|| "beauty", or "good") can legitimately be "seen" from a
|| variety of differing perspectives, and that definitions of
|| "difference" don't need to be constrained within the context
|| of ideas about "exclusion".
||
|| Anyway, while the connection between ideology, partisan
|| politics, etc. and the computer industry is not at all
|| obvious or simple, the manner in which people tend to form
|| oppositional "camps" around ideological positions and
|| value/belief systems in the "purist vs. popularizer" debate
|| seems to have many of the same characteristics as in other
|| instances of conflict oriented social/political interaction.
||
|| The characteristic dysfunctional dynamic would lead one to
|| expect to frequently see both "sides" in such conflicts
|| shooting themselves in the foot with wild abandon.
||
|| regards,
|| ep
||
||
|| On 4 May 2001, at 20:00, Mohan, Ross wrote:
||
|| Date sent: Fri, 04 May 2001 20:00:21 -0800
|| To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
|| <ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com>
|| Send reply to: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com
|| Organization: Fat City Network Services, San
|| Diego, California
||
|| ...
||
|| > p.s. btw, your cry to attention at the end....are there articles
|| > you have in mind supporting your statement that the
|| anti-MS jihad'ers
|| > underestimate .Net, or is this an intuitive call? (I am perfectly
|| > willing to entertain either, or both, as a answer...)
|| >
|| > -----Original Message-----
|| > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
|| > Sent: 5/4/2001 6:05 PM
|| >
|| > Basically this is just the same old "purists" vs. "popularizers"
|| > stuff.
|| >
|| > But it is classic. Let the jihad rage.
|| >
|| > Reverend Torvalds is of course mainly preaching to the choir
|| > (purists). He ought to at least acknowledge that in the history of
|| > science, commerce -as applied scientific development- has always
|| > played an important role as an economic engine, though
|| frequently in
|| > considerable tension to the "purist" interests/preferences of
|| > scientific elites. Of course it is tempting to set up
|| scientists as
|| > heroic/romantic figures, but without the social engine of commerce
|| > chugging along, would the resources have even been there
|| to support
|| > all the great innovations that were developed by the
|| intellectual and
|| > scientific elites? Of course not. Also, commerce and
|| science (as we
|| > know them in the "modern" age since 1600), arose from the same
|| > underlying cultural/"evolutionary" wellsprings, so the idea of
|| > separating commerce from science has limited relevance.
|| >
|| > I wasn't able to stay awake enough to force myself to
|| stomach reading
|| > all of corporate-speak drivel in the MS guy's statement,
|| but this did
|| > jump out at me:
|| >
|| > ---excerpt---
|| > [IP = intellectual property]
|| >
|| > ...Finally, the fact that we believe strongly in the value of IP
|| > protection doesn't mean that we discount the importance of
|| > contributing to and supporting the public domain of knowledge as
|| > well. We believe that interaction between the public domain and
|| > the IP-based sector needs to be based on mutual
|| responsibility and
|| > respect.
|| >
|| > There is an important and longstanding tradition for the public
|| > domain of knowledge, or "intellectual commons." This is
|| reflected
|| > in many ways, including federal support for basic research, the
|| > limitations on IP rights reflected in the law and, more
|| recently,
|| > the broad practice of contributing technology to public
|| standards
|| > groups for the continued development of the Internet. We support
|| > this and want to continue to be a constructive and responsible
|| > participant in this community, including making contributions to
|| > public standards. There is an equally important tradition of
|| > commercial companies having the opportunity to benefit from and
|| > apply this public knowledge, including by developing commercial
|| > products that are protected by IP rights. There are
|| many examples
|| > of this, including the many products that grew from research in
|| > the space program and the advances in speech recognition
|| > technology that followed work done at pre-eminent institutions
|| > such as Carnegie Mellon.
|| >
|| > ...
|| >
|| > ---end---
|| >
|| > Really, the brainwashed idiots/ propagandists at MS are their own
|| > worst enemy (enema?). If they would just tell the plain
|| truth instead
|| > of constantly twisting it and distorting it to fit their
|| internally
|| > self-referential greedy mentality, they could make a much
|| better fair
|| > case (IMO).
|| >
|| > From what I've heard, at this point ".Net" is being dangerously
|| > underestimated by the anti-MS jihad.
|| >
|| > regards,
|| > ep
|| >
|| >
|| >
|| > On 4 May 2001, at 11:41, Mohan, Ross scribbled with alacrity and
|| > cogency:
|| >
|| >
|| > > Boy, that is an excellent response, and one
|| > > of the best defenses of Open Source i've heard.
|| > >
|| > > || -----Original Message-----
|| > > || From: Jamadagni, Rajendra [mailto:rajendra.jamadagni_at_espn.com]
|| > > || Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 11:22 AM
|| > > || To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
|| > > || Subject: RE: OT -- MS makes a statement about
|| open-source software
|| > > || movemen
|| > > ||
|| > > ||
|| > > || Here is Linus's response ....
|| > > ||
|| >
|| >
|| http://web.siliconvalley.com/content/sv/2001/05/03/opinion/dg
|| illmor/webl
|| > og/torvalds.htm
|| >
|| >
|| > --
|| > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
|| > --
|| > Author: Eric D. Pierce
|| > INET: PierceED_at_csus.edu
|| >
|| > Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
|| > San Diego, California -- Public Internet access /
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|| > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
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|| > Author: Mohan, Ross
|| > INET: MohanR_at_STARS-SMI.com
|| >
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|| Author: Eric D. Pierce
|| INET: PierceED_at_csus.edu
||
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|| Author:
|| INET: dgoulet_at_vicr.com
||
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-- 
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-- 
Author: Mohan, Ross
  INET: MohanR_at_STARS-SMI.com

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