RE: OT -- MS makes a statement about open-source software movemen

"The characteristic dysfunctional dynamic would lead one to expect to frequently see both "sides" in such conflicts shooting themselves in the foot with wild abandon."

This explains why my clay feet are full of holes. I often bend over backwards in trying to see both sides....

As for .net, well...<shrug>...i like Joel Spolsky's take on it:

 http://joel.editthispage.com/stories/storyReader$133

Take care man,

Ross

|| -----Original Message-----
|| From: Eric D. Pierce [mailto:PierceED_at_csus.edu]
|| Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 1:57 PM
|| To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
|| Subject: RE: OT -- MS makes a statement about open-source software
|| movemen
||
||
|| dude,
||
|| semi-intuitive/deductive?
||
|| re: ".net"
||
|| what I've seen is a lot of the usual eternally poorly, or
|| partly, thought out MS-hate, mostly secondary/derivative
|| material on email lists, along with some good criticism
|| (good as in: based on either sophisticated technical, or
|| political grounds).
||
|| on the other hand, at this campus, the desktop support R&D
|| guy, who is more or less agnostic (occasionally slight
|| pro-MS leanings) says that .net is expectde to take care of
|| some major vexing problems with client platform rollouts and
|| maintenance.
||
|| And you saw the forward from the folks at our local user
|| group who appear to have done some careful preliminary
|| examination of the two strategies.
||
|| As an "independent", I see massive problems on the MS side.
||
|| BUT, as in virtually all the "conflict" based clashes between
|| people that have become emotionaly invested in "one side" or
|| another of an argument about values, beliefs and "aesthetics",
|| excesses and rhetorical distortions will be in evidence on
|| both "sides".
||
|| It is easy for people in the "purist" camp of the tech
|| community to trash MS' greed and monopolistic excesses (and
|| the underlying value/belief system). It is much harder for
|| some "purists" to maintain a sophisticated, balanced "good
|| faith" approach to dialoging with people with other
|| perspectives, and to engage in healthy self criticism.
||
|| The tendency for people to become obsessive about
|| "advocating" their own (or their own groups') perspective
|| and therefore loose the ability to tolerate, and appreciate
|| other perspectives (especially to the extent of becoming
|| reactionary) is called "instrumentalization" by social
|| theorists.
||
|| I've paid more attention to the cultural mapping of these
|| issues in relation to 1) science/religion dialogue (e.g.,
|| the Kansas School Board controversy about teaching of
|| evolutionary theory), the broad outlines of "liberal vs.
|| conservative" conflict over social engineering policies
|| (esp. public education & welfare state), and issues in
|| international relations (e.g., Giddens', of the London
|| School of Economics, "constructivist" perspective).
||
|| ---excerpt---
||
|| http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0745622674
||
|| Book Description
||
|| The idea of finding a "third way" in politics has been widely
|| discussed - not only in the UK, but in the US, Continental Europe
|| and Latin America. But what is the third way? Supporters of the
|| notion haven't been able to agree, and critics deny the
|| possibility altogether. Anthony Giddens shows that developing a
|| third way is not only a possibility but a necessity in modern
|| politics. The third way represents the renewal of social democracy
|| in a world where the views of the old left have become obsolete,
|| while those of the new right are inadequate and contradictory. A
|| new social democratic agenda is emerging that is integrated,
|| robust and wide-ranging. It is an agenda that can rekindle
|| political idealism.
||
|| The author's previous works, especially "Beyond Left and Right"
|| (Polity Press 1994), have influenced debates about the social
|| democracy in many countries across the world. Frequently referred
|| to in the UK as Tony Blair's guru, Giddens has made a strong
|| impact on the evolution of New Labour. The author or editor of
|| over thirty books, he is currently the Director of the London
|| School of Economics and Political Science.
|| ...
||
|| ---end---
||
|| In terms of transcending (not invalidating) the limitations
|| of older value/belief systems, one useful tool is called
|| "standpoint epistemology", which assumes that "truth" (or
|| "beauty", or "good") can legitimately be "seen" from a
|| variety of differing perspectives, and that definitions of
|| "difference" don't need to be constrained within the context
|| of ideas about "exclusion".
||
|| Anyway, while the connection between ideology, partisan
|| politics, etc. and the computer industry is not at all
|| obvious or simple, the manner in which people tend to form
|| oppositional "camps" around ideological positions and
|| value/belief systems in the "purist vs. popularizer" debate
|| seems to have many of the same characteristics as in other
|| instances of conflict oriented social/political interaction.
||
|| The characteristic dysfunctional dynamic would lead one to
|| expect to frequently see both "sides" in such conflicts
|| shooting themselves in the foot with wild abandon.
||
|| regards,
|| ep
||
||
|| On 4 May 2001, at 20:00, Mohan, Ross wrote:
||
|| Date sent: Fri, 04 May 2001 20:00:21 -0800
|| To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
|| <ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com>
|| Send reply to: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com
|| Organization: Fat City Network Services, San Diego, California
||
|| ...
||
|| > p.s. btw, your cry to attention at the end....are there articles
|| > you have in mind supporting your statement that the
|| anti-MS jihad'ers
|| > underestimate .Net, or is this an intuitive call? (I am perfectly
|| > willing to entertain either, or both, as a answer...)
|| >
|| > -----Original Message-----
|| > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
|| > Sent: 5/4/2001 6:05 PM
|| >
|| > Basically this is just the same old "purists" vs. "popularizers"
|| > stuff.
|| >
|| > But it is classic. Let the jihad rage.
|| >
|| > Reverend Torvalds is of course mainly preaching to the choir
|| > (purists). He ought to at least acknowledge that in the history of
|| > science, commerce -as applied scientific development- has always
|| > played an important role as an economic engine, though
|| frequently in
|| > considerable tension to the "purist" interests/preferences of
|| > scientific elites. Of course it is tempting to set up
|| scientists as
|| > heroic/romantic figures, but without the social engine of commerce
|| > chugging along, would the resources have even been there
|| to support
|| > all the great innovations that were developed by the
|| intellectual and
|| > scientific elites? Of course not. Also, commerce and
|| science (as we
|| > know them in the "modern" age since 1600), arose from the same
|| > underlying cultural/"evolutionary" wellsprings, so the idea of
|| > separating commerce from science has limited relevance.
|| >
|| > I wasn't able to stay awake enough to force myself to
|| stomach reading
|| > all of corporate-speak drivel in the MS guy's statement,
|| but this did
|| > jump out at me:
|| >
|| > ---excerpt---
|| > [IP = intellectual property]
|| >
|| > ...Finally, the fact that we believe strongly in the value of IP
|| > protection doesn't mean that we discount the importance of
|| > contributing to and supporting the public domain of knowledge as
|| > well. We believe that interaction between the public domain and
|| > the IP-based sector needs to be based on mutual
|| responsibility and
|| > respect.
|| >
|| > There is an important and longstanding tradition for the public
|| > domain of knowledge, or "intellectual commons." This is
|| reflected
|| > in many ways, including federal support for basic research, the
|| > limitations on IP rights reflected in the law and, more
|| recently,
|| > the broad practice of contributing technology to public
|| standards
|| > groups for the continued development of the Internet. We support
|| > this and want to continue to be a constructive and responsible
|| > participant in this community, including making contributions to
|| > public standards. There is an equally important tradition of
|| > commercial companies having the opportunity to benefit from and
|| > apply this public knowledge, including by developing commercial
|| > products that are protected by IP rights. There are
|| many examples
|| > of this, including the many products that grew from research in
|| > the space program and the advances in speech recognition
|| > technology that followed work done at pre-eminent institutions
|| > such as Carnegie Mellon.
|| >
|| > ...
|| >
|| > ---end---
|| >
|| > Really, the brainwashed idiots/ propagandists at MS are their own
|| > worst enemy (enema?). If they would just tell the plain
|| truth instead
|| > of constantly twisting it and distorting it to fit their
|| internally
|| > self-referential greedy mentality, they could make a much
|| better fair
|| > case (IMO).
|| >
|| > From what I've heard, at this point ".Net" is being dangerously
|| > underestimated by the anti-MS jihad.
|| >
|| > regards,
|| > ep
|| >
|| >
|| >
|| > On 4 May 2001, at 11:41, Mohan, Ross scribbled with alacrity and
|| > cogency:
|| >
|| >
|| > > Boy, that is an excellent response, and one
|| > > of the best defenses of Open Source i've heard.
|| > >
|| > > || -----Original Message-----
|| > > || From: Jamadagni, Rajendra [mailto:rajendra.jamadagni_at_espn.com]
|| > > || Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 11:22 AM
|| > > || To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
|| > > || Subject: RE: OT -- MS makes a statement about
|| open-source software
|| > > || movemen
|| > > ||
|| > > ||
|| > > || Here is Linus's response ....
|| > > ||
|| >
|| >
|| http://web.siliconvalley.com/content/sv/2001/05/03/opinion/dg
|| illmor/webl
|| > og/torvalds.htm
|| >
|| >
|| > --
|| > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
|| > --
|| > Author: Eric D. Pierce
|| > INET: PierceED_at_csus.edu
|| >
|| > Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
|| > San Diego, California -- Public Internet access /
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|| > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
|| > --
|| > Author: Mohan, Ross
|| > INET: MohanR_at_STARS-SMI.com
|| >
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|| Author: Eric D. Pierce
|| INET: PierceED_at_csus.edu
||
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-- 
Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
-- 
Author: Mohan, Ross
  INET: MohanR_at_STARS-SMI.com

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