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RE: OT RE: Async I/O on Windows

From: Mohan, Ross <>
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 13:27:00 -0800
Message-ID: <>

"TPC doesn't really matter"

        -  You are correct: no single metric covers it all.
           But, Oracle is sure all over the ad pages when

         it FINALLY manages to get one near the top. Which 
         isn't often. And right now, hands down, SS2K is

           about FOUR TIMES AS FAST as Oracle. "Hang on to
           yer doors, there's a REAL POWER UNIT coming by!"

"OraMag says...."

        - Uh huh. Sure. Right. Fine. Whatever.

"Industry Sources say..."

        - see above. Quoting independent sources permits verifiability.

"NT crashes once a week"

        -  See the current Aberdeen Report, January 2001 on
        the reliability of Win2K. After SS2K blows your doors
        off, this report will blow your mind. (User must open
        mind first! :-) They note, across a range of NT5 sites,

      99.99% uptime. Bet most Unix sites don't match that. 
      Only one Unix site that I've worked on has - hardware, 
      software, something causes problems. The worst offender, 
      by far? Sun. (Think "E-bay") But, this is purely anecdotal evidence. 

"Locking Problems...dirty reads"

        - You mean in SS6.5, right? Because they were fixed
        in SS7.0.  The only thing worse than having purely
        anecdotal information is having OLD anecdotal information.
        Here's something to bring you closer to up-to-date:

Well, I gotta go now. I need to continue solving Oracle database problems using my ( spell it with me, folks ) "iTAR".

LOL! -----Original Message-----
From: Jesse, Rich [] Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 2:42 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: OT RE: Async I/O on Windows

Actually, not that it matters from what I can tell, but Oracle is tops if you consider clustered vs. non-clustered.  It seems that Oracle doesn't even have tests for clustered systems.  I wonder what happened to the VLDB tests in the huge DEC/Compaq Alpha cluster?
As far as SQL (pronounced: "SQueaL") Server "blown the doors off", there are factors that TPC does not consider.  First, is reliability.  According to Oracle Magazine, Jan/Feb 2001, p38, "...a 12-computer configuration from Microsoft, such as that used in recent TPC-C benchmarks, is estimated to experience a catastophic failure once every 7.5 days, according to Microsoft's own estimates."  Granted, the quote is from Oramag, but I've heard the same from other "Industry Sources".  
I know of a specific implementation where the NT database servers would dog and/or crash when approximately 500 concurrent users were attached (note: "attached" <> "active") to the database.  The decision was made to dump NT for DB serving and go with a major (HP or Sun or IBM) flavor of Unix for it's scalability and reliability.
Second, when was the last time you needed a 500K TPC-C from only 48 clients? From a couple thousand, yes, but only 48?  And who's gonna buy everyone in their company a $7500 desktop PC with twin PIII-800s in them for clients? While those numbers are specific to the top TPC-C Compaq/MS result, that's how all these companies get their numbers.  
I'm not betting my job on TPC-C numbers.  The numbers just don't reflect real-life situations.
And I didn't even touch upon the potential locking problems on SQL Server, or how it can do dirty reads...  :)
Just my $.02.  I need to go create some Oracle databases on HP/UX now.  ;)  

Rich Jesse                          System/Database Administrator             Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 09:56
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

"NT still pants"...LOL!!!
It must be panting alot, It has BLOWN THE DOORS OFF of "Oracle on Unix" in running
SQLServer on NT, as has DB2.
The general public ( and anyone else ) can wake up and smell the coffee at <> . 
Check out the Top Ten TPC-C marks, by pure performance.  
Not interested in pure peformance?  Check out the Price/Performance leaders. Oracle doesn't
even SHOW UP in the top ten. What a shocker, eh? It's painful to lose our illusions....
Oh, what's that? You don't like TPC-C? It's outmoded or somesuch? Fine, check out ANY
of the TPC benchmarks. Oracle is NEVER in the top three. Usually, it doesn't even show
I mean, I like Oracle, too, the time you turn on the multimode airconditioner, use
the 12-way adjustable power bucket seats, activate the object-oriented OnStar Satellite
navigational system, power up the heated side view mirrors and all the other tools, trinkets,
and toys that make it my personal favorite database, there *is* the chance that the
twenty year old genius mechanic in the the tricked out Nova next to you at the light is going
to kick your ass when the light turns green.  
But really, I still love Oracle. Warts and all.  
Wanna drag?
(heh heh heh)


-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2001 6:45 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

I have actually been doing a fair it of reading on this since the topic was brought up, and stand corrected, as earlier mentioned. But I have to say guys that NT is still fairly "pants" when it comes to handling multi threaded processes.. Win2K is a great improvement but M$ still has a lot of work to do on in my view. (only when you compare this against UNIX)  
Now don't get me wrong, there is enough traffic on this list about this at the moment, so I dont want more bandwith added with this thread if at all possible :)
Thanks for the reply anyway Yong, I think I will wait for a "good" book on Win2k to come out (unless you know one?) before I go out and buy one (books come out of my pocket as I am a sales person mostly).. NT as far as I am concerned is now in Win2K's shadow, and I think that is the way of the future for Windowze bound people.
For all out there that have used NT and not Win2K - TRY IT.. Services are handled a LOT better, file management and sharing.. All sorts of new fun stuff to sink your teeth in to..
As a side note, for the last line of my first paragraph - I also feel that UNIX cannot be compared in anyway to Windows at this time. Windowze O/S's are designed for pointy clicky people that prefer to look at a nice GUI interface, and generally don't have the indepth technical knowledge that a good UNIX sys admin does..
(If there any NT admins out there don't flame me, I have to deal with it every day of my life...)
The views expressed here are soley those coming out of my coffee deprived hungover mind.. They do not express those of my employers, though I'm sure they agree :^)

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 07:00
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

Oracle on NT runs as


MULTIPLE THREADS for performance reasons (no more
need for shared memory....context switches are a LOT less expensive, etc.)

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 12:51 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

Hi, Mark,

Async I/O is available on Windows, at least NT. It's not an easy topic. If you
think you already know enough about operating systems in general, I suggest you
read David Solomon's "Inside WindowsNT". For a lab test, launch Performance Monitor on your NT box and look at the counters for Cache.

I'm not sure by "single thread management" whether you mean NT can't have multiple processes or Oracle on NT runs as one thread. The former is obviously
wrong. The latter is a design issue inside Oracle Corporation and the question
as to why was asked on this forum before without an answer (without an answer I
can remember, that is).

Yong Huang

you wrote:

Asynch I/O on a Windowze box? supresses a snigger...

To the best of my knowledge there are no Windows based system that can take advantage of this, single thread management can be enough a problem sometimes..

But, I may be wrong.. List?

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Received on Mon Feb 05 2001 - 15:27:00 CST

Original text of this message