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Eric,
Thank you for the feedback. And I would like to address your points further for the benefit of all.
I am sure that their are other small companies in the same boat around the world and I guess to me the basic issue here is whether there is a place for Third Party training or does Oracle University monopolize the training market.
Appreciate any and all feedback.
Time for work,
Dan Mills
OCP DBA Consultant and Instructor
> Dan,
>
> I worked a little (very little) with Oracle7 in an RCE environment at
> this campus several years ago, but don't take my comments (below) as
> representing any great expertise in either Oracle training or the RCE
> world (continuing education). I mainly think you need to clarify your
> questions. (I'm doing the "devils advocate" thing here, in real
> life, I would probably act totally outraged, rant about gutless
> bureaucratic functionaries, and advocate for you.)
>
> more...
>
> On 1 Feb 2001, at 17:30, Dan Mills wrote:
>
> Date sent: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 17:30:22 -0800
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
<ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com>
>
> ...
>
> > Two long time Oracle DBAs, midway through their careers, secure a steady
> > consulting contract, incorporate, and build a relationship with a major
> > mid-west university to train students and the local IT community
> > through their continuuing education program.
>
> 1st question: what exactly do you mean by "relationship"?
>
> Are the incorporated dbas contracting with continuing education? If
> so, are they making good money from that "relationship"? If so, I
> would guess that Oracle doesn't see employees of the incorporated
> dbas the same as they see "internal" continuing education employees
> (even though under different circumstances, they could theoretically
> be the same people in the same place at the same time).
>
> For the uninitiated, Oracle sells (or used to anyway) an incredibly
> cheap *unlimited* $500 (as in "FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS") license for
> ANY/ALL Oracle products to educational institutions, as long as any
> such licensed products are ONLY used for instructional purposes.
>
> As you can imagine, this could represent a HUGE savings to the
> educational institution, or put another way, it may provide about the
> only way for such institutions to license Oracle software for
> instructional use (as opposed to administrative use, where the high
> Oracle license costs can be justified if Oracle is deemed "mission
> critical"). {For instance, the +/- 25 campus CSU statewide system is
> in the process of spending over $350 million on a PeopleSlop/Oracle
> "University" database system -including some general infrastructure
> costs).
>
>
> >... They have been successful in consulting
> > and training, through hard work, long nights, intelligence, and
diligence.
>
> To be frank, why should Oracle Corporation care? Their mission is to
> be ruthless/greedy b*st*rds and make $$$$ for their stock holders. If
> the dba corporation does the same, then you have a "win-win". If not,
> .......oh well.
>
>
> > They now employ a unix sysadmin and 12 oracle dbas as consultants and
> > instructors (WOOHOO), have published several SQL and Relational Database
> > design books through MacMillan and SAMS, and per semester, typically
sell
> > out 60-70% of seating for their full range of SQL, PL/SQL, Designer,
> > Developer, DBA, and Unix courses. Let me also add that these courses are
> > hands-on Oracle training, not designed to teach someone to take a
> > certification exam, but designed specifically to enable the student to
apply
> > the learned skills immediately on the job. They were completely
constructed
> > from the ground up by the founders, contributed to by the variously
> > experienced instructors over the last four years, and are grounded in
the
> > real life Oracle experience of the founders and instructors.
>
> Sounds good, but again, ruthless/greedy Oracle Corp is mainly
> interested in getting their slice of the $$$ "in question", and
> protecting their self-interests. It is entirely possible that from
> Oracle Corp's viewpoint, the dba corporation is trying to pull a
> "fast one", and build their reputation/profitability/etc by taking
> advantage of the "protective shell" that Oracle's instructional
> discount provides via the continuing education institution.
>
> Something think that may be important that you left out: what is the
> extent of the influence of your community's continuing education
> Oracle training program, and how does that interplay with the Oracle
> market in that same area? Without knowing the answer, it may be
> difficult to determine how Oracle corp. might, or might not, see its
> interests being hurt by the growth of the dba corp.'s role in the
> continuing education Oracle training program there.
>
>
> >
> > Problem:
> >
> > Oracle Education, I guess now deemed Oracle University, has decided that
> > their *RetroActive* Software licensing agreement does not allow for
third
> > party training. The local university, of course, is withdrawing from the
> > Oracle portion of the relationship, while continuing the relationship
with
> > my employer for other types of training. Oracle is agressively pursuing
an
> > "Oracle University" relationship with the school to offer Oracle
training.
>
> Assuming that the Oracle people that decided to do this used some
> sort of "logic" (regardless of how pathological any such logic might
> seem to others), they may indeed have decided that they can make more
> $$$$ (especially short term profit) by sucking the life out of the
> carefully cultivated ~aura of awareness~ about Oracle training that
> the dba corp. has worked to build in your community. It is probably
> an injustice that this is happening, but *dude*, this is the real
> world of corporate capitalism, and if the dba corp. isn't
> sophisticated enough to understand how to anticipate exposure to such
> liabilites in their business model, "natural selection" (*survival of
> the fitest* and other unpleasantries of the unbenevolent, cold, cruel
> business world) will almost certainly be visited upon them sooner or
> later. live and learn.
>
> If the continuing education institution is not willing/able to fight
> Oracle Corp on principle, then I can't see how the dba corp. would be
> able to do much about things either. however, the dba corp. can
> always try to put pressure on Oracle corp. either directly, or
> indirectly - via IOUG (and/or other user groups). You must know that
> "conventional wisdom" is that Oracle's profits are highly dependent
> on training activities, no? Is the dba corp tilting against a
> windmill?
>
> I would be very interested to hear if Oracle corp. is even willing to
> seriously listen to the "logic" of the dba corp., much less act on
> the basis of any sort of real altruistic concern for the collective
> interests of your community's educational institutions.
>
> Note (IRONY WARNING): did you see the PR cr*p the Oracle/IOUG put out
> (during the election) about Larry E.'s big philantropic moves to
> support education? Amazingly enough, the PR was originating from,
> where else, .... ------------> Texas!!!
>
>
> >
> > Question:
> >
> > With today's shortage and projected, continued shortage of competent IT
> > professionals, can the industry afford not to provide the best Oracle
> > (majority database market shareholder) training possible, to the
> > self-motivated, individual developer and future dba (yes, that was me),
and
> > the Non-Fortune 500 Oracle shops out there with limited new technology
> > budgets, who need to train their IT staff ?
>
> Well, sounds like you are confusing "the industry" with "Oracle
> Corp.'s self-interests" (or at least short term profitability).
>
>
> > Are we developers and dbas, who have based our careers on Oracle, or are
> > moving in that direction, time-constrained AND money constrained, to be
> > limited solely to the very expensive "Oracle University" training,
> > affordable only by our employers and only offerred during the day when
most
> > developers and dbas are working hard to support their Oracle systems?
>
> Perhaps.
>
> To turn things around, another question is: does you community's
> educational institution want to expore *other options*? Can the dba
> corp. demonstrate a little altruism itself, and work to help the
> educational institution rebuild the Oracle training program using
> "internal hires" (as defined by Oracle as legitimate/whatever),
> instead of farming out the whole show to the 3rd party dba corp.
> (which presumably has built handsome profits/reputation from the old
> arrangement)?
>
> >
> > And personally, I see two sides of this argument
>
> cool!
>
> >...and just want to see what
> > the community thinks:
> >
> > Is this the best course of action, for the long term, for Oracle and the
> > Oracle Software community?
>
> Long term, probably not, but again, more info is needed.
>
> >
> > Again, I appreciate any and all feedback.
>
> You got it (& likewise)!
>
> regards,
> ep
>
>
>
>
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/yid,5800264
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>
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> Author: Eric D. Pierce
> INET: PierceED_at_csus.edu
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-- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Dan Mills INET: mills.dan_at_home.com Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists -------------------------------------------------------------------- To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).Received on Fri Feb 02 2001 - 06:34:46 CST