RE: general doubt - we need more forgiveness in this world.

From: Steve Orr <sorr_at_arzoo.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 12:56:34 -0800
Message-Id: <10731.125770@fatcity.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C0764D.C445C500 Content-Type: text/plain;

charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

RE: general doubt - we need more forgiveness in this world....and I forgive Miss Manners for her incomplete understanding :-) -----Original Message-----
From: root_at_fatcity.com [mailto:root_at_fatcity.com]On Behalf Of Mohan, Ross Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 12:26 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: general doubt - we need more forgiveness in this world.

Miss Manners say that forgiveness is something granted after an apology is offered.

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Orr [mailto:sorr_at_arzoo.com] Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 3:07 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: general doubt - we need more forgiveness in this world.

  The flaw with email communication is one's tendency to read in attitudes   that just weren't intended. You can't see the expression on their face and   you can't read their minds. I'm on Rachel's side and always will be because
  I've had the pleasure of meeting her and have found her to be a wonderfully
  nice and ingratiating personality. But no matter how nice someone is we all
  have our moments and rough edges.

It's easier to be offended than to just forgive but life is a lot more fun if we can learn to forgive and get on with it. Quoting Don Henley, "It's time to get down to the heart of the matter and I think it's about forgiveness, even if you don't love me anymore."

  Graceful peace to you all and I beg your forgiveness for any past, present,
  and future indiscretions,
  Steve Orr

And I'm sorry if I sound "preachy" too. :-)

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 10:27 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

  I do not object to mentioning of the delete key but I do not like and will   not tolerate the tone. I do not see Rachel as a such moral authority figure
  for me to accept such tone (Maybe she is but I barely know her - I saw her   one time on IOUG conference and saw couple of her books). If instead of "I   remind you, the delete key is located on your keyboard and labelled as such"
  she said something like "If you don't like the message use the delete key" I
  wouldn't even reply.
  Alex Hillman

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 12:41 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

  I must say that I totally agree with Rachel. As a female, I found that the   email Alex send out to be very offensive. And I definitely don't appreciate
  such comments on the list.
  Every body entitled to speak whatever they want, subject to not physically   or emotionally harming the other person.   Like what Rachel said, DELETE keys are always there for you for one   purpose: to delete whatever you don't want to read!   Winnie

"Deshpande, Kirti" <kirti.deshpande_at_verizon.com>@fatcity.com on 01/03/2001 07:50:50 PM
Please respond to ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com Sent by: root_at_fatcity.com

To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com> cc:

  Current Score:
   Rachel : 14
   Alex : 6
  End of 1st Period !! This is getting very interesting at FatcityBowl...   Can we..can we just get along...

Rodney King
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rachel Carmichael [SMTP:carmichr_at_hotmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 8:51 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> Subject: RE: general doubt
>
> From www.dictionary.com:
>
> insinuation: Something insinuated, especially an artfully indirect,
often
> derogatory suggestion.
>
> insinuate: To introduce or insert (oneself) by subtle and artful means.
>
> Based on those definitions, I didn't insinuate anything. I was neither
> subtle nor indirect in calling you sexist.
>
> sexism: Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping
of
> social roles based on gender.
>
> Telling me that I am not your mother or wife is promoting stereotyping,
> since those are gender-based roles.
>
> I told you to use the delete key and not to insult me... no insinuation
> there. You might consider checking a dictionary before you use words
when
> you are not sure of the definitions.
>
> Consider yourself permanently blocked -- and a complaint about your
> behavior
> has been lodged with the list owner.
>
>
> >From: Alex Hillman <alex_hillman_at_physia.com>
> >Reply-To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com
> >To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com>
> >Subject: RE: general doubt
> >Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 13:30:32 -0800
> >
> >Maybe it is enough. What is your next insinuation? Sexist - it is
> >hilarious.
> >You should have better arguments than that. And also you can delete my
> >messages - if you use MS Outlook you can even have a rule to delete
them
> >immediately.
> >
> >Alex Hillman
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 3:46 PM
> >To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> >
> >
> >Yes you are entitled to your view -- but when you add to the messages
on
> a
> >topic then you add to the trash if you consider the topic itself to be
> >trash.
> >
> >As for not being your wife or mother -- no, thank goodness, I'm not in
> any
> >way or form related to you. And I find it insulting that you would say
> that
> >to me, since you would NOT say "you are not my father" to any man on
this
> >list. I find that a sexist remark and definitely "trashing" this list.
> >
> >As for being or not being a school teacher... whether or not I was is
> >irrelevant... but I consider THAT a compliment (although I can infer
that
> >you don't think it is). School teachers educate... and I think that
> >eradicating ignorance is a noble task.
> >
> > >From: Alex Hillman <alex_hillman_at_physia.com>
> > >Reply-To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com
> > >To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com>
> > >Subject: RE: general doubt
> > >Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 12:10:42 -0800
> > >
> > >I think that as anybody else I am entitled to my point of view and
can
> > >express it. This is definitely trashing and every day it becomes
worse.
>
> >In
> > >trashing I mean to diminish the value of this list. Also there were
no
> > >indications in the subject showing me that I should delete the
message.
> > >Also
> > >I do not appreciate this "I remind you, the delete key is located on
> your
> > >keyboard and labelled as such". You are not my mother or wife or
school
> > >teacher (or maybe you are a school teacher - in former life?).
> > >
> > >Alex Hillman
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 2:26 PM
> > >To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
> > >
> > >
> > >Alex,
> > >
> > >"trashing this list"? A bit harsh and definitely inaccurate.
> > >
> > >I remind you, the delete key is located on your keyboard and labelled
> as
> > >such. I suggest you use it instead of, to quote your own message,
> >"trashing
> > >this list".
> > >
> > >Rachel
>
-- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Deshpande, Kirti INET: kirti.deshpande_at_verizon.com Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

  --
  Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com   --
  Author:
    INET: Winnie_Liu_at_infonet.com

  Fat City Network Services    -- (858) 538-5051  FAX: (858) 538-5051
  San Diego, California        -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
  --------------------------------------------------------------------

To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

  --
  Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com   --
  Author: Steve Orr
    INET: sorr_at_arzoo.com

  Fat City Network Services    -- (858) 538-5051  FAX: (858) 538-5051
  San Diego, California        -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
  --------------------------------------------------------------------

------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01C0764D.C445C500 Content-Type: text/html;

charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD><TITLE>RE: general doubt - we need more forgiveness in this = world.</TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =

class=3D246055520-04012001>...and=20
I forgive Miss Manners for her incomplete understanding  =20 :-)</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr>-----Original Message----- From: root_at_fatcity.com=20 [mailto:root_at_fatcity.com]On Behalf Of Mohan, = Ross Sent:=20
 Thursday, January 04, 2001 12:26 PM To: Multiple recipients = of list=20
 ORACLE-L Subject: RE: general doubt - we need more = forgiveness in=20
 this world. </DIV>
 Miss Manners say that forgiveness is = something=20
 granted after an apology is offered. -----Original Message----- From: Steve=20
 Orr [<A =
href=3D"mailto:sorr_at_arzoo.com">mailto:sorr_at_arzoo.com</A>]=20 Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 3:07 PM = <FONT=20
 size=3D2>To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <FONT=20 size=3D2>Subject: RE: general doubt - we need more forgiveness in this =

world. 
 The flaw with email communication is one's tendency = to read in=20
 attitudes that just weren't intended. You = can't see=20
 the expression on their face and you can't = read their=20
 minds. I'm on Rachel's side and always will be because = <FONT=20
 size=3D2>I've had the pleasure of meeting her and have found her to be = a=20
 wonderfully nice and ingratiating = personality. But no=20
 matter how nice someone is we all have our = moments and=20
 rough edges. 
 It's easier to be offended than to just forgive but = life is a=20
 lot more fun if we can learn to forgive and = get on=20
 with it. Quoting Don Henley, "It's time to = get down to=20
 the heart of the matter and I think it's about <FONT=20 size=3D2>forgiveness, even if you don't love me anymore." Graceful peace to you all and I beg your forgiveness = for any=20
 past, present, and future = indiscretions,=20
 Steve Orr And I'm sorry if I sound "preachy" too. :-) = 
 -----Original Message----- Sent:=20
 Thursday, January 04, 2001 10:27 AM To: = Multiple=20
 recipients of list ORACLE-L I do not object to mentioning of the delete key but = I do not=20
 like and will not tolerate the tone. I do = not see=20
 Rachel as a such moral authority figure for = me to=20
 accept such tone (Maybe she is but I barely know her - I saw = her=20
 one time on IOUG conference and saw couple of her = books). If=20
 instead of "I remind you, the delete key is = located on=20
 your keyboard and labelled as such" she said = something=20
 like "If you don't like the message use the delete key" I = <FONT=20
 size=3D2>wouldn't even reply. Alex = Hillman=20
 
 -----Original Message----- Sent:=20
 Thursday, January 04, 2001 12:41 PM To: = Multiple=20
 recipients of list ORACLE-L I must say that I totally agree with Rachel. As a = female, I=20
 found that the email Alex send out to be = very=20
 offensive. And I definitely don't appreciate such=20
 comments on the list. Every body entitled to = speak=20
 whatever they want, subject to not physically or=20
 emotionally harming the other person. Like = what Rachel=20
 said, DELETE keys are always there for you for one <FONT=20 size=3D2>purpose: to delete whatever you don't want to read! = <FONT=20
 size=3D2>Winnie "Deshpande, Kirti"=20 <kirti.deshpande_at_verizon.com>@fatcity.com on 01/03/2001 = <FONT=20

  size=3D2>07:50:50 PM</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Please respond to=20
  ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Sent by:&nbsp;=20
  root_at_fatcity.com</FONT> </P><BR>

To:   Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L =

<ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com> cc: = 
 Current Score:  Rachel :=20
 14  Alex : 6 End of 1st=20
 Period !! This is getting very interesting at FatcityBowl... = <FONT=20
 size=3D2>Can we..can we just get along...  - Rodney=20
 King > -----Original Message----- = <FONT=20
 size=3D2>> From:   Rachel Carmichael=20 [SMTP:carmichr_at_hotmail.com] > = Sent:  =20
 Wednesday, January 03, 2001 8:51 PM >=20 To:     Multiple recipients of list = ORACLE-L=20
 > Subject:     RE: general=20 doubt > > = From=20
 www.dictionary.com: > >=20
 insinuation: Something insinuated, especially an artfully indirect,=20 often > derogatory suggestion. = <FONT=20
 size=3D2>> > insinuate: To introduce = or insert=20
 (oneself) by subtle and artful means. >=20
 > Based on those definitions, I didn't insinuate = anything.=20
 I was neither > subtle nor indirect in = calling you=20
 sexist. > >=20 sexism:  Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote = stereotyping=20
 of > social roles based on gender. = <FONT=20
 size=3D2>> > Telling me that I am not = your mother=20
 or wife is promoting stereotyping, > = since those=20
 are gender-based roles. > = <FONT=20
 size=3D2>> I told you to use the delete key and not to insult me... = no=20
 insinuation > there. You might consider = checking a=20
 dictionary before you use words when > = you are not=20
 sure of the definitions. > = <FONT=20
 size=3D2>> Consider yourself permanently blocked -- and a complaint = about=20
 your > behavior > has=20
 been lodged with the list owner. > = <FONT=20
 size=3D2>> > >From: Alex Hillman=20 <alex_hillman_at_physia.com> > = >Reply-To:=20
 ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com > >To: Multiple = recipients=20
 of list ORACLE-L <ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com> >=20
 >Subject: RE: general doubt > = >Date: Wed, 03=20
 Jan 2001 13:30:32 -0800 > > = <FONT=20
 size=3D2>> >Maybe it is enough. What is your next insinuation? = Sexist - it=20
 is > >hilarious. >=20
 >You should have better arguments than that. And also you can = delete=20
 my > >messages - if you use MS Outlook = you can=20
 even have a rule to delete them >=20 >immediately. > > <FONT=20 size=3D2>> >Alex Hillman > = >=20
 > >-----Original Message----- = <FONT=20
 size=3D2>> >Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 3:46 PM = <FONT=20
 size=3D2>> >To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L = <FONT=20
 size=3D2>> > > > = <FONT=20
 size=3D2>> >Yes you are entitled to your view -- but when you = add to the=20
 messages on > a >=20
 >topic then you add to the trash if you consider the topic itself = to=20
 be > >trash. >=20
 > > >As for not being your wife or = mother --=20
 no, thank goodness, I'm not in > = any=20
 > >way or form related to you. And I find it = insulting=20
 that you would say > that = <FONT=20
 size=3D2>> >to me, since you would NOT say "you are not my = father" to any=20
 man on this > = >list. I=20
 find that a sexist remark and definitely "trashing" this list.=20 > > > >As for = being or=20
 not being a school teacher... whether or not I was is <FONT =

size=3D2>> >irrelevant... but I consider THAT a compliment = (although I can=20
 infer that > = >you don't=20
 think it is). School teachers educate... and I think that = <FONT=20
 size=3D2>> >eradicating ignorance is a noble task. = <FONT=20
 size=3D2>> > > > >From: Alex = Hillman=20
 <alex_hillman_at_physia.com> > >=20 >Reply-To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com > > = >To:=20
 Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L = <ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com>=20
 > > >Subject: RE: general doubt = <FONT=20
 size=3D2>> > >Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 12:10:42 -0800 = <FONT=20
 size=3D2>> > > > > >I = think that as=20
 anybody else I am entitled to my point of view and can = <FONT=20
 size=3D2>> > >express it. This is definitely trashing and = every day it=20
 becomes worse. >=20
 > >In > > = >trashing I=20
 mean to diminish the value of this list. Also there were no = <FONT=20
 size=3D2>> > >indications in the subject showing me that I = should=20
 delete the message. > >=20
 >Also > > >I do not appreciate = this "I=20
 remind you, the delete key is located on >=20
 your > > >keyboard and labelled as = such". You=20
 are not my mother or wife or school = <FONT=20
 size=3D2>> > >teacher (or maybe you are a school teacher - in = former=20
 life?). > > > >=20
 > >Alex Hillman > > > = <FONT=20
 size=3D2>> > >-----Original Message----- >=20
 > >Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 2:26 PM <FONT=20 size=3D2>> > >To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L = <FONT=20

  size=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
  size=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;Alex,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;</FONT>=20

> > >"trashing this list"?  A bit = harsh and=20
 definitely inaccurate. > > > = <FONT=20
 size=3D2>> > >I remind you, the delete key is located on your = keyboard=20
 and labelled > as > >=20
 >such. I suggest you use it instead of, to quote your own = message,=20
 > >"trashing > = > >this=20
 list". > > > >=20
 > >Rachel > --=20
 Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: <A=20 href=3D"http://www.orafaq.com" =
target=3D_blank>http://www.orafaq.com</A>=20 -- Author: Deshpande, = Kirti=20
   INET: kirti.deshpande_at_verizon.com = <FONT=20
 size=3D2>Fat City Network Services    -- (858) = 538-5051 =20
 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego,=20 California        -- Public = Internet access=20
 / Mailing Lists <FONT=20
 =

size=3D2>----------------------------------------------------------------=

----=20
 To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an = E-Mail=20
 message to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT = spelling=20
 of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, = include a line=20
 containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of = mailing=20
 list you want to be removed from).  You may also=20
 send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). =

-- Please see the official = ORACLE-L=20
 FAQ: <A href=3D"http://www.orafaq.com"=20 target=3D_blank>http://www.orafaq.com</A> --=20
 Author:   INET:=20 Winnie_Liu_at_infonet.com Fat City Network=20 Services    -- (858) 538-5051  FAX: (858) = 538-5051=20
 San Diego,=20
 California        -- Public = Internet access=20
 / Mailing Lists <FONT=20
 =

size=3D2>----------------------------------------------------------------=

Author: Steve Orr   INET:=20
 sorr_at_arzoo.com 
 Fat City Network Services    -- (858) =

538-5051  FAX: (858) 538-5051 San = Diego,=20
 California        -- Public = Internet access=20
 / Mailing Lists <FONT=20
 =

size=3D2>----------------------------------------------------------------=

Received on Thu Jan 04 2001 - 14:56:34 CST