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RE: Unions & DBA - Job boundaries & perks

From: Mohammad Rafiq <>
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 11:57:54 -0500
Message-Id: <>

You have a very long message and your assessment. As I have no experience of Spain except that it is Florida of Europe where everybody try to enjoy it is sunny days and retired life. I have never been there although my company was having a office in Madrid.
I am sorry for not commenting on all of your message except Driving in USA which is in all part of USA is really 'crual'(I am in New Jersey) without any road sense or courtesy. If I go back to UK and drive there with my habits developed in USA , lot of 'HORNS' I have to get in my first week of driving till such time I used to that driving culture based on 'Give way' and 'drive safe'.
Have nice Holdays.
Best Regards

From: "Eric D. Pierce" <> Reply-To:
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <> Subject: RE: Unions & DBA - Job boundaries & perks Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:50:34 -0800


We are likely to move to spain in the next couple of years (my wife is a spanish national). From the experience I have had, I'll comment pro/con on the differences between USA and EU, and look forward to your critique of my points:

On 22 Dec 2000, at 6:58, Mohammad Rafiq wrote:

> What about other factors like quality of life,

EU: excellent culture, arts, history, architecture, language development possibilities. Much more family oriented, with strong traditions (rapidly eroding w/ global economics). Leisure travel is obviously more civilized in many ways in the EU, especially for culturally oriented vacations.

Politics: no comment. It seems like the coalition-oriented euro parlimentary systems ought to "work better", but it doesn't seem like it to me as an american. I know that USA politics seem anacronistic and bizarre to many non-americans, so I guess one can get used to almost any kind of poison over time. :)

USA is being overrun by ugly/boring suburban strip mall architecture, and significant parts of the population are being dumbed down by bad education and tv zombification.

In some respects "multiculturalism" is progressing better in the USA, although there are still intrenched racial/ethnic "underclasses" in rotting urban cores that were bypassed by the transition from industrial to the "new economy". The intractibility of the problem is caused by the failure of both major segments of the USA political culture, ironically so in terms of the failures of the political "left" to address the problem.

A main problem in EU is a more rigid class orientation, and, at least in spain, extreme racism (not so much against americans as against arabic/african people who are immigrating more now, and traditional internal cultural factions, such as Irish, Catalan, Basque, etc.).

Main problems in the USA: the social alienation/ fragmentation/ atomization, & decline of family and community life. Much of this is a result of "conspicuous consumption", excessive materialistic values, rootlessness , etc. Unfortunately EU is going the same direction to some extent with "global economics", just not as fast, and not as extreme as the USA.


Mostly, EU has minimal crime. By contrast in the USA, many areas are very bad. The relative lack of crime in the EU is very attractive.

Exception is european political terrorism, which really doesn't affect many people directly, but everyone hates. And of course because of american imperialism, predictions are that the USA will have a lot more terrorism in the future, so this differential may not be as great in the future.

>free madical system
> for health,vision etc,

This is probably going to be one of the main "practical" reasons we'll go to Spain from the USA. The medical system in the USA is getting really scary, and is in extreme crisis. On *average*, the nationalized health system in Spain is probably at least as good as the USA (considering that many poor, and working poor, people in the USA get little, or no medical coverage). They probably don't have as much of the high-end state of the art medicine in europe though (this may be an amerian myth, but I've heard it a lot from americans that have spent time in europe).

>no big expenses to keep more than 1 car and pay high
> insurance like in USA,

Interesting, I'll have to ask about insurance. Gas is of course a lot higher in the EU than USA.

Parking is better in the USA. Many european visitors here remark on the amazing level of organization and cooperation in the driving habits of americans (probably excluding new york & boston). :):)

I guess you are saying that americans have to own more cars, and drive them more because of land use & development patterns, lack of public transportation and "lifestyle" issues? Probably right.

>assistance in College education for children,

On average, K-12 education in EU is better. The education system in the USA, on average is a huge mess. Although in many middle-class, especially upper-middle, or better areas, the public schools are fairly good (if the "liberal" ideology indoctrination doesn't bother you too much).

A USA college/univ. degree is very prized in europe. This seems a little bizzare to me, and I don't fully understand why. Possible reasons: there are much more vast college/univ. resources in the USA than most EU national systems (simply because of the large scale of the national population and economy), and the USA has historically spent more on public funding of science and technology than any time in human history. And of course everyone wants to learn the "success" model of the USA (for better or worse).

I always figured that european traditions of scholarship were intellectually better than in the USA, but the more I learn, the more I realize that many parts of the european system are somewhat "tradition bound", and aren't as driven by innovation as in the USA.

> good public transport system,

With a few exceptions, the USA has pathetically bad public transport.

>better social security system and things like
> that.

Yes, but some of the socialist solutions were "too good", and ended up undermining the economy, screwing the business classes, etc.

>In nutshel I am earning more than twice in US than UK but my savings
> are almost the same with less mental peace.

Sounds about right. Food, at least in spain, is excellent, much more locally produced stuff, and generally cheaper.

One point you didn't make is that the current exchange rate is such that if you can earn $ in the USA, and spend those $ in EU, you gain at least 25% on your earnings. Of course that isn't going to apply to most people. It would perhaps be a major factor for retirees, or similar. That is assuming that exchange rates stay at the current ratios favorable to the US $ of course.

Another factor that you may correct me on is that I get the impression that computer technology isn't quite as deep and pervasive in european culture is it is in american culture. If true, I'm not sure exactly what the implications of that are for tech career choices. I get the impression (fuzzy) that outside of "corporate" areas, there aren't as many tech career options in the EU as USA.

regards & best wishes,

>I moved to US because of my
> immigration and family reasons. But if I had a choice to live, then I
> preferred UK or Holland or other part of Europe then US.
> That is my experience of 3 years for living in Holland(1984-87) and in
> UK(1995-98)
> Regards
> Rafiq
> Reply-To:
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L <>
> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:12:47 -0800
> Cherie,
> I was in England before. I did not come across any unions among
> people. They may belong to an union simply because their organization is
> unionized. Say for ex. If you work with a big Auto industry firm, you may
> belong to an union, even though you do software stuff...


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Author: Eric D. Pierce

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Received on Sun Dec 24 2000 - 10:57:54 CST

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