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Home -> Community -> Mailing Lists -> Oracle-L -> RE: LGWR's Writing Habits
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Hi Steve,
When I run your all_parameters.sql script the value for _log_io_size is 0. What is the affect of this as it relates to point 2 below? And why would oracle use this as the default value? I assume it is the default, I have never changed this or any other undocumented parameter. The database is a test database, version 8.1.6.1 on Solaris.
Thanks for all your input,
Ed
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Adams [mailto:steve.adams_at_ixora.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 3:11 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: LGWR's Writing Habits
Hi Gaja,
OK, I did read it as MIN. I retract my previous comment.
Nevertheless, although I don't have access to the source code, I am fairly
sure
that it is a MIN, not a MAX.
Maybe you could ask your friend to check again.
@ Regards, @ Steve Adams @ http://www.ixora.com.au/ @ http://www.christianity.net.au/
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, 14 December 2000 5:35
To: Steve Adams; Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Hello Steve,
I don't think it has the opposite effect. The function is MAX not MIN. The condition for the 1/3rd full event that forces LGWR to write is when MAX(1 Mb., log_buffer/3) is true.
Here are some examples:
If log_buffer is 512K,
then
MAX(1 Mb, 170.6K) = 1 Mb.
-- The 1/3rd full event will not kick in as log_buffer is 512K
end if;
If log_buffer = 1Mb,
then
MAX(1 Mb, 333.33K) = 1 Mb.
-- The 1/3rd full event will not kick in as log_buffer is 1 Mb.
end if;
If log_buffer = 3 Mb.
then
MAX(1 Mb, 1 Mb.) = 1 Mb.
-- The 1/3rd full event will kick in as 1/3rd of 3 Mb. is 1 Mb.
end if;
If log_buffer = 6 Mb.
then
MAX(1 Mb, 2 Mb.) = 2 Mb.
-- The 1/3rd full event will kick in as 1/3rd of 6 Mb. is 2 Mb.
end if;
Hope that helps,
Gaja
Author:Oracle Performance Tuning 101 by Osborne McGraw-Hill "Opinions and views expressed are my own and not of Quest"
-- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Steve Adams INET: steve.adams_at_ixora.com.au Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists -------------------------------------------------------------------- To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0654D.B1A79150 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version = 5.5.2653.12"> <TITLE>RE: LGWR's Writing Habits</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hi Steve,</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>When I run your all_parameters.sql script the value = for _log_io_size is 0. What is the affect of this as it relates = to point 2 below? And why would oracle use this as the default = value? I assume it is the default, I have never changed this or = any other undocumented parameter. The database is a test = database, version 8.1.6.1 on Solaris.</FONT></P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Thanks for all your input,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Ed</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Steve Adams [<A = HREF=3D"mailto:steve.adams_at_ixora.com.au">mailto:steve.adams_at_ixora.com.au= </A>]</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 3:11 PM</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: RE: LGWR's Writing Habits</FONT> </P> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hi Gaja,</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>OK, I did read it as MIN. I retract my previous = comment.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Nevertheless, although I don't have access to the = source code, I am fairly sure</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>that it is a MIN, not a MAX.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>1) My testing demonstrates that under intensive redo = generation without commits,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the average LGWR write is just larger than 1/3 of = the log buffer certainly for</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>normal log buffer sizes. I have yet to repeat the = test with a log buffer larger</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>than 3M.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>2) Also, the unsolicited email that I got yesterday = from the Oracle insider that</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>I mentioned said: "I do have access to the = source code and it tells LGWR to</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>write every 3 seconds, 1/3 full or 1M which ever is = less."</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Maybe you could ask your friend to check = again.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>@ Regards,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>@ Steve Adams</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>@ <A HREF=3D"http://www.ixora.com.au/" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.ixora.com.au/</A></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>@ <A = HREF=3D"http://www.christianity.net.au/" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.christianity.net.au/</A></FONT> </P> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Thursday, 14 December 2000 5:35</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: Steve Adams; Multiple recipients of list = ORACLE-L</FONT> </P> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hello Steve,</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I don't think it has the opposite effect. The = function is MAX</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>not MIN. The condition for the 1/3rd full event that = forces LGWR</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>to write is when MAX(1 Mb., log_buffer/3) is = true.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Here are some examples:</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If log_buffer is 512K,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>then</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> MAX(1 Mb, 170.6K) =3D 1 = Mb.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- The 1/3rd full event will not kick in as = log_buffer is 512K</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>end if;</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If log_buffer =3D 1Mb,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>then</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> MAX(1 Mb, 333.33K) =3D 1 = Mb.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- The 1/3rd full event will not kick in as = log_buffer is 1 Mb.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>end if;</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If log_buffer =3D 3 Mb.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>then</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> MAX(1 Mb, 1 Mb.) =3D 1 Mb.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- The 1/3rd full event will kick in as 1/3rd of 3 = Mb. is 1 Mb.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>end if;</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If log_buffer =3D 6 Mb.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>then</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> MAX(1 Mb, 2 Mb.) =3D 2 Mb.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- The 1/3rd full event will kick in as 1/3rd of 6 = Mb. is 2 Mb.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>end if;</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hope that helps,</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Gaja</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>--- Steve Adams <steve.adams_at_ixora.com.au> = wrote:</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Hi Gaja,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Have another look at that MAX, and you'll see = that it has the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> opposite effect to</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> what you claim. That is, the 1/3 threshold is = effective</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> *below* that threshold,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> not *above* it.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> @ Regards,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> @ Steve Adams</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> @ <A = HREF=3D"http://www.ixora.com.au/" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.ixora.com.au/</A></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> @ <A = HREF=3D"http://www.christianity.net.au/" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.christianity.net.au/</A></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> -----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> From: Gaja Krishna Vaidyanatha [<A = HREF=3D"mailto:gajav_at_yahoo.com">mailto:gajav_at_yahoo.com</A>]</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Sent: Thursday, 14 December 2000 3:45</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Subject: LGWR's Writing Habits</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Hello everyone,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> A couple of days ago I had posted a response to = someone's</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> query</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> about copy latches and in that discussion I had = mentioned that</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> the 1/3 full event of the redo log buffer will = really not</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> 'kick</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> in' unless log_buffer is set to at least 1Mb. I = must confess</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> that the number here is actually 3Mb and not = 1Mb as posted</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> before. I apologize for that typo.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> However, the fact remains that from Oracle8, = LGWR will not be</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> posted by the 1/3rd full event of the redo log = buffer, unless</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> there are at least 1 Mb worth of redo entries = in the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> log_buffer.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> In my previous posting, I said that for this to = occur the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> log_buffer should be sized at least 1 Mb, but = that number is</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> actually even higher - 3 Mb.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> And the rationale behind that stems from the = events on which</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> LGWR writes to disk. They are as = follows:</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> 1) Every 3 secs (independent of DBWR, yes this = has been proven</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> to be true by testing and looking up the source = code).</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> 2) On a Commit.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> 3) When DBWR posts LGWR to write. (This is to = make sure that</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> redo entires are written before 'dirty' blocks = are written to</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> disk).</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> 4) On checkpoints.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> 5) When the log_buffer is 1/3rd full, but = subject to the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> following formula MAX(1 Mb., log_buffer/3), = i.e., at least 1</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Mb</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> of redo entries need to be there, for the 1/3 = event to occur.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Now let's think about this for a minute. = Realistically the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> need</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> for the 1/3rd full event is not that critical, = as events 1-4</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> will take care of getting the redo entries down = to disk. And</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> this in no way will cause more 'log buffer = space' waits than</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> what the system is already experiencing.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> To make doubly sure that I was not 'under the = influence', I</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> called a very good friend of mine at Oracle, = and had him check</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> the source code for 8.0.5, and he corroborated = my claim. We</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> are</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> doing some further digging, to determine = whether 'all' or</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> 'one'</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> of the redo copy latches are used to protect = the buffer, while</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> 'flushing' the entire contents of the = log_buffer. There are 2</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> references to this (one mentioning 1 copy latch = and the other</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> mentioning all copy latches) and we will get to = the bottom of</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> that and I will then post our findings.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> End of technical stuff;</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> = ********************************************************</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Begin non-technical stuff;</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> When I originally posted that the 1/3rd full = event has changed</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> in functionality in Oracle8, it was termed as a = 'ludicrous</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> suggestion'. Now, that comment may have gone = 'just a bit too</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> far' to my personal comfort, as it was directed = against me</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> 'point blank'. I just could not hit the 'delete = key' on that</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> one.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> In light of all the 'country of origin' and = 'ethnic</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> background'</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> stuff that has gone through our list in the = past couple of</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> days,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> I humbly urge all of us to exercise some = caution in our</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> communications. This is an forum where we = cannot guage the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> poster's feelings, hence we need to make sure = that we are</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> sensitive to the reader's feelings.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> While it is absolutely OK to question the = contents of a</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> posting,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> please do it in a manner that is 'amicable'. = After all, we are</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> human beings first, aside of our ethnic, = cultural, religious</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> and</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> political backgrounds. Let's try to respect = thatm core fact.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> When I met Jared approx. 3 years ago at an = IOUG-A conference,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> we</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> talked about creating an Oracle listserv to = 'share relevant</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> and</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> accurate information'. I don't think Jared or = any one of us,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> would want this to become 'electronic = battleground' for food</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> fights or to be a forum to 'force and assert = one's technical</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> or</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> personal ego'.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> This list today has a few thousand individuals = from all</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> corners</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> of the world, and all of us contribute to the = best of our</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> abilities. Let's continue the great technical = content exchange</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> that we have had and let's do that with = 'respect for the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> reader'. Thanks for your patience, tolerance = and technical</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> prowess.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> End non-technical stuff;</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> = ********************************************************</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Seasons Greetings,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Gaja</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Gaja Krishna Vaidyanatha</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Director, Storage Management Products, Quest = Software Inc.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Office : (972)-304-1170, E-mail : = gaja_at_quest.com</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Author:Oracle Performance Tuning 101 by Osborne = McGraw-Hill</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> "Opinions and views expressed are my own = and not of Quest"</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> = __________________________________________________</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Do You Yahoo!?</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions = of Products.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> <A HREF=3D"http://shopping.yahoo.com/" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://shopping.yahoo.com/</A></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> --</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: <A = HREF=3D"http://www.orafaq.com" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.orafaq.com</A></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> --</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Author: Gaja Krishna Vaidyanatha</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> INET: gajav_at_yahoo.com</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Fat City Network Services -- = (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858)</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> 538-5051</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> San Diego, = California -- Public Internet = access /</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Mailing Lists</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT = SIZE=3D2>---------------------------------------------------------------= -----</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send = an E-Mail</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> message</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling = of 'ListGuru')</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> and in</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> the message BODY, include a line containing: = UNSUB ORACLE-L</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> (or the name of mailing list you want to be = removed from).</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> You may</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> also send the HELP command for other = information (like</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> subscribing).</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> </P> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Gaja Krishna Vaidyanatha</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Director, Storage Management Products, Quest = Software Inc.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Office : (972)-304-1170, E-mail : = gaja_at_quest.com</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Author:Oracle Performance Tuning 101 by Osborne = McGraw-Hill</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>"Opinions and views expressed are my own and = not of Quest"</FONT> </P> <P><FONT = SIZE=3D2>__________________________________________________</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Do You Yahoo!?</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of = Products.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A HREF=3D"http://shopping.yahoo.com/" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://shopping.yahoo.com/</A></FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: <A = HREF=3D"http://www.orafaq.com" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.orafaq.com</A></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Author: Steve Adams</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> INET: steve.adams_at_ixora.com.au</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Fat City Network Services -- (858) = 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>San Diego, = California -- Public Internet =Received on Wed Dec 13 2000 - 15:43:13 CST
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