Message-Id: <10578.113749@fatcity.com> From: Kimberly.smith@gmd.fujitsu.com Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 08:40:52 -0700 Subject: RE: RE: WILL YOU GIVE PROGRAMMERS DBA ACCOUNT IF WE SAID YES? Until I change it here the previous dba allowed people to create their own objects (not tablespaces) in development, test, and production. Number one problem that has come out of that is the lack of sizing on any of the tables. Now this has become work for me. My general rule of thumb is I do not mind allowing work being done by others as long as there no potential of extra work for me. I could train users to size tables and what not but they have enough to do and there is always turn over in the development world. I would spend more time training then I would just creating the tables properly the first time. You could give it to senior developers who are usually pretty responsible but like I said before, they have enough to do. Get a junior dba if you don't have time to create tables. -----Original Message----- From: root@fatcity.com [mailto:root@fatcity.com]On Behalf Of Cyril Thankappan Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 1:36 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re:RE: WILL YOU GIVE PROGRAMMERS DBA ACCOUNT IF WE SAID YES? Hi! Sorry if I am adding too many 'opinions'! At our site, DBAs used to create database objects because tablespace creation was DBA's responsibilty and tablespace was created by DBA because backup was DBA's responsibility and backup was done by DBAs because restoration and recovery was DBAs responsibility..... But I am planning to put everything on its head.... by allowing object creation and tablespace creation to be done by programmers with information being passed to DBAs so DBA can accordingly plan/arrange for backup. Can someone (experienced person!) pls suggest as to what are the likely problems to be faced in such a set up? Kindly note this will be the suggested sequence a. the tablespace creation will be given as request to DBA b. After the tablespace is created by DBA he will include it in his backup scripts. c. after the steps a and b the programmer can go on merrily creating the objects in which ever tablespace he chooses.. and the DBAs' expertise lies in continously monitoring to anticipate problems and take corretive action Howzzat? Thanks PS: On 2nd thoughts should I patent the above idea!!!!!! But more seriously... some of the advice and help I have received here is very precious to me.. ------Original Message------ To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent: July 31, 2000 3:16:27 PM GMT To ALL, Now that I've returned from a restful vacation. Cultivating/mentoring good developers is an art that I cannot claim to have mastered, but one that is imperative to a stable and productive environment. Having good and responsive developers is true heaven on earth. Regrettably I have a number of good and responsive tenants and some real dirt bags as well. The answer here is to monitor your DB on some regular basis, put as much self correction in place as possible, be proactive, and learn what you can about the apps. Namely be a good DBA and a fair developer at the same time. OH, BTW: one easy way to not have space problems is to get reasonable space estimates up front and then add about 50% to that. It's hard, but essential. And to the original question, NO WAY, NO HOW. Dick Goulet Senior Oracle DBA Vicor Corporation ____________________Reply Separator____________________ Author: Kimberly.smith@gmd.fujitsu.com Date: 7/27/00 8:22 AM Actually at our site the developers are the first line of contact as well. They rarely have to call me. I used to be on a site that no matter what went wrong they always blamed the database. Sometimes they would not even be accessing the database and they would still blame it. That is the difference between working with well trained and experienced developers as opposed to those who are not so well trained. By the time I left the other site I had some of them actually checking their code first. Its a hard battle but one I think is worth going though at least once in your career so that you can appreciate this environment so much more. But I still don't give developers DBA... -----Original Message----- Elkins Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2000 6:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Larry, And some landlords let their properties deteriorate so badly that they are uninhabitable ;-) Sorry, I couldn't resist since the analogy presented such a sitting duck target. I am *not* taking potshots at DBA's (FWIW, I used to be one), though I have run into a *couple* that might be called "slumlords", just as we have all run into some/many/all developers who are horrible "tenants". With regards to your comment on getting calls in the middle of the night, I've been involved with a handful of sites where the lead *developer* responsible for an application is the first contact. The thinking there was that if an error occurred, it was probably due to an application issue and the lead developer was better equipped at trouble-shooting the problem (the DBA's were typically overworked and had no time to learn about the individual apps). There was one site, though, were 99.9% of the failures were due to insufficient space issues (the DBA was *very* stingy about allocating space). The only problem was that he never monitored or trended space usage to know when to allocate more (and I kid you not, his response was "Why should I monitor space usage since we will find out when something fails. We will take care of it then". His manager backed him on this. Uggh!). After I received numerous 3:00 AM calls over a few months, all due to insufficient space, the *DBA* became the first contact for any problems. After a while, space problems never cropped up. Imagine that ;-). I have had the good fortune to work with a number of great DBA's over the years. I am working with some right now. It's a good thing when the barriers are broken down and the development, DBA, and systems staff all work as a team. And the DBA staff does not have to give in to outrageous requests for the groups to get along and work well together. The ones I'm working with right now are pretty tough and tight; but, they are also very responsive and helpful. Everyone's roles are very well defined, everyone understands, and no one complains. A very enjoyable and productive environment. I've gone one too long. I hope everyone has a good week. Oh yeah, in response to the original question in this thread, no way! Regards, Larry G. Elkins The Elkins Organization Inc. elkinsl@flash.net 214.954.1781 An analogy might be tenant / landlord. Developers "occupy" the database, but the DBA "owns" it. Some tenants will take care of the place and treat it as well as if they owned it; others will do whatever they like for the short haul and if something breaks due to neglect, hey that's the landlord's problem, let him/her come fix it. As if we have a two-second fix for everything. Larry Holder Senior Systems Analyst, Oracle Database Administrator The University of Tennessee at Martin Computer Center lholder@utm.edu (901) 587-7890 www.utm.edu/~lholder Saved by grace <>< Romans 8:38-39 -- Author: Larry G. Elkins INET: elkinsl@flash.net Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists -------------------------------------------------------------------- To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: ListGuru@fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Author: INET: Kimberly.smith@gmd.fujitsu.com Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists -------------------------------------------------------------------- To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: ListGuru@fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Author: INET: dgoulet@vicr.com Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists -------------------------------------------------------------------- To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: ListGuru@fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup -- Author: Cyril Thankappan INET: cyril_thank@india.com Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists -------------------------------------------------------------------- To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: ListGuru@fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in